Spies die like flies

[Von Nanega]

With the Unofficial 1.2. My spies die like flies. Any time. Any where. Cant spy on cities. Cant spy on armies. Oh well. Maybe just the longest run of bad spying luck ever.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Nnope but it sure makes the thieves guild usefull/mandatory instead of useless now

[Aaron A Aardvark]

I don't have the patch but I'll be pleased if that have downgraded spies, I almost never failed to infiltrate a settlement before a siege.

They should be like assassins, it takes a bit of time and effort to get them trained up.

[Von Nanega]

I feel downgraded spies is a good thing. Keeps the spy spam down man! I agree now that one has to uptech a city just for the spies now.

[Foz]

I Agree, it's much better with spies taking a bit of work to use effectively: they were far too easy to use before. At least now their proliferation is somewhat checked, and the choice between spies vs. siege equipment for assault purposes is a much more interesting one to make (spies were hands down best choice prior to 1.2).

In other news, it looks to me like some interesting things are affecting the spies' odds now. For one, it seems the spies can spy more successfully on people/places that they have observed for a turn. I noticed that Scottish towns had 50% success rate for my starting English spy, but when he got there and spent a turn or so with the town revealed before moving in, the rate was then 62%. I've been unable to tell if there is a greater effect for longer study time, but the brief one seems to be repeatable. Similarly, armies/agents that remain in view for more than 1 turn seem to become easier spying targets. Again I've only seen them get easier by one level, but that could be for lack of anything sticking around long enough for it to happen a second time. I did notice a stalled Scottish heir w/ stack of troops that all spies had 95% success rate on, presumably because his location had been known for so long: he eventually moved back beside the Scottish capital, at which point he immediately had a much lower success chance to all my spies. Targets also seem to be a little easier when they are on your territory, and rebels seem to be easier targets usually than units/agents belonging to factions.

That's about the sum total of my observations about spies at the moment. I'm not certain whether or not it must be the spy that sees the target to make it easier... but I'm actually thinking that as long as it's being revealed somehow, the spying chance will go up accordingly. I'm also uncertain if my observations indicate a big overhaul of the spy system or not: it may be that it was just impossible to notice the system working before because the success rate was always so high. Either way the 1.2 state of affairs is IMO much improved in this regard.

[Lochar]

Hmm I would love for 50% chance, my starting spies have 45% to check most people and 35% for cities.

They can be useful tho as you dont need them IN the city to spy its forces, and I tend to agree that they made infiltration too easy before, not to mention stuffing spies into cities was a good way to get a riot going.

I guess I relied on them too much before because it's actually challenging taking over rebel strongholds now. Heh they burned 2 of my rams and 1 siege tower, so I basically had to fight to the gatehouse.

[alex9337]

The spy "nerfing" that seems to have happened with 1.2 is marvellous. Prior, they were a no brainer, now you have to think about it. As someone mentioned earlier, it certainly makes the acquisition of an upgraded Thieves guild extremely important. Before 1.2, this guild was completely unnecessary.

I have already found that my unguilded spies come out with only 1 star and a 35 to 45% chance of success. Gotta gamble, get them trained up to get them into enemy cities. If they die, it cost you the florins to train a new one.

Beautiful!

[FactionHeir]

While spies have been rightfully nerfed, they did mess up completely with assassins (in the leaked 1.02 anyway) as my newly trained assassins can take out most mongol generals on the first hit while they can't hurt merchants, princesses and priests (incl heretics) at all almost.

[andrewt]

Almost every single AI city that is at least minor city level has a theives' guild anyway, so might as well work on other guilds on the cities you build up. The AI really loves it's theives' guild, both before and after patch.

[PutCashIn]

A bit off topic, but it seems assassins have been reworked too...with =< version 1.1, a level 2 and a level 3 spy would have only a few % (maybe +/- 10%) points difference in success given the same.

Now given the same target (my eg: an eastern spearmilitia lead 4 unit rebel army, standing in my zone, on barren terrain), a level 2 slayer has 55% chance of success, a level 3 95% !

I think this is good - instead of a killer being good/bad at tasks when comparing the beginning and end of thier career, they are good/bad at different jobs throughout thier career.

No longer can I throw 10+ lvl 7 killers at mongols, hoping for a 'good roll,' now I really need the lvl 10 specalist.

[PutCashIn]

Soz faction heir, didnt see your post...maybe they tried to change them in leaked 1.2 and now they have settled on something tangible in final 1.2?

Then again, there is your 5 versions of the same game idea....

[FactionHeir]

Still waiting for the PBM to go 1.02 before I update, so I don't know if this has been changed again from 1.02 leaked to final.
If you want though, look at chances with a level 6 assassin for taking out a level 3 priest vs taking out a faction leader.

[Gaiseric]

I like the increased difficulty of using spies. It will make me rethink my early in game seige tactics.

I have had some frustrations though with my higher level spies dying on 95% attempts. I'll have to use what Foz said to make sure that an target is revealed before I send in my agents.

[Daveybaby]

I have noticed that my n00b spies often gain several levels on their first successful mission (which is often something like spying on a priest or something) as opposed to pre-patch where it was usually just 1 level at most.

[sapi]

Yeh, I've noticed that as well.

I've seen spies jump to +4 or +5 after completing one simple mission (such as spying on a diplomat), but it then seems very difficult to advance them (if you can at all)

[FactionHeir]

That's because the trigger when your GoodSpy trait is 0 or lower gives +1 at 100% and then an additional +1 at 75% chance as the second trigger is found after the first. Maybe a compensation? I didn't find it quite necessary.

[Foz]

Yeh, I've noticed that as well.

I've seen spies jump to +4 or +5 after completing one simple mission (such as spying on a diplomat), but it then seems very difficult to advance them (if you can at all)

You certainly can. The difference you notice is partially because their GoodSpy trait gains 2 levels, and the progression of GoodSpy is 1/2/4/8/16. So the first 2 points (you get both 75% of the time) give him +2 spy skill. Then you need 2 more points to get +3, 4 on top of that for +4, and 8 yet again (16 total points) for +5 spy skill. So it advances you into an area where it becomes more difficult to get stat increases from GoodSpy. Also, only the first success gains 1 point guaranteed (unless you are losing points to BadSpy - the game lets you get to GoodSpy 1 w/ 100% chance of a point on each success). Successful missions after Goodspy 1 only gain 1 point 75% of the time, which makes it that much tougher to score the needed points to have really advanced spies. This doesn't seem too bad though, since their odds go up pretty briskly with each stat point.

I've also found that spies who role low starting skill can be infinitely more useful if you wait for them to acquire an ancillary:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger beguiling_bard_vnv_trigger
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
and SettlementBuildingExists >= brothel
and AgentType = spy

AcquireAncillary beguiling_bard chance 5

;------------------------------------------
Trigger dancer_vnv_trigger
WhenToTest CharacterTurnEnd
Condition EndedInSettlement
and RemainingMPPercentage = 100
and SettlementBuildingExists >= brothel
and AgentType = spy

AcquireAncillary dancer chance 5

The Dancer grants 2 skill points, while the bard grants 1. Combined, a spy has ~10% chance to get one of them from spending a turn (without moving) in a settlement with at least a brothel, so resting your below average spies is a good way to snag some extra skill points before deploying them, though it does take some time. It could prove as effective to simply throw the spy at a target and crank a new one out if he dies until you get some capable spies around - I suspect which you prefer boils down to what sort of player you are.

Of course there's no need for either of those if you can help your spies pop out with better stats via ancillaries to start with:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

;------------------------------------------
Trigger pickpocket_vnv_trigger
WhenToTest AgentCreated
Condition AgentType = spy
and SettlementBuildingExists >= market

AcquireAncillary pickpocket chance 12

Having a market or above at spy creation gives you a chance for a pickpocket, which is +1 agent skill. If playing a faction that isn't Northern or Southern European, you also get a shot at a pet monkey if you have a market or higher. 5% chance at creation, and it grants +1 agent skill.

So there are definitely alternative ways to go about getting some decent spies if you feel your initial recruitment leaves something to be desired.