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Thread: Thanks a lot, unions

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Thanks a lot, unions

    Ah, American Unions. Especially gov't unions (like the highest paid teacher's in WA state going on strike for more money.)

    Some just add hugely to the cost of living.

    The bus driver's union in Seattle is partially responsible for the death of a man.

    Sandy Olosky, Metro Bus driver in Seattle. She has 25 complaints dating to 1997 for reckless driving, and an additional 24+ complaints for being rude to passengers.

    She was actually fired in 2005, and had that stuck, another man would've been alive today. But her union and its arbitrator saved her job and she returned to driving buses. Then, this April, her bus struck and killed Michael Dahlquist in his car. One passenger said the bus was going to fast to avoid a collision.

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...sdriver12.html

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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    So your blaming all unions for one drivers mistake? Seems a little broad.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Destroyer of Hope
    So your blaming all unions for one drivers mistake? Seems a little broad.
    In fairness to CR, he's blaming the transportation union for keeping an unsafe driver on the road. And then, yeah, he expands to curse all unions everywhere, but give the man some credit. At least he's basing his criticism on a concrete example. That alone makes his post above-average for our beloved Backroom.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    In fairness to CR, he's blaming the transportation union for keeping an unsafe driver on the road. And then, yeah, he expands to curse all unions everywhere, but give the man some credit. At least he's basing his criticism on a concrete example. That alone makes his post above-average for our beloved Backroom.
    He also mentioned teacher's unions. If you want to attack unions you don't need to go any further than those. Of course, the bus driver sounds as though she's another example of incompetent employees being protected by a union.

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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.

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    Hand Bacon Member ShadeHonestus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.
    Instead of their primary function, within the U.S., being a tool for the worker their only evolution has been to becoming a tool of the politicians. I've know a lot of local union leaders at different stages of my life and the protection of the worker is definately not their primary concern anymore. With exceptions the primary goal of the union leadership and those who gain their political favor has largely become the protection of their own station with little regard for the reality of the worker. I've personally seen instances and heard about others who when recognized as refusing political contribution to the union's campaign of choice were squeezed out of employment with high efficiency.
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    I'm glad you are laughing Tribesman. I've seen unions first hand contribute to the destruction of my state economy.

    Unions are needed, to an extent. It's getting absolutely ridiculous.



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    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    He also mentioned teacher's unions. If you want to attack unions you don't need to go any further than those.
    Are you kidding? Seriously? Because teachers are some of the most underpaid people I can think off offhand. Disclaimer: My wife is a teacher. Further, we live in North Carolina, where unions are illegal. They do have this "organization" that's a pseudo-union, and it's done a lot of good for them so far. The state recently voted to increase teacher pay across the board by about 5%, and I can tell you it was much needed. The cost of living around here isn't too bad depending on where you are, but we still have some friends that she works with who still eat ramen on a regular basis and are under piles of debt for school loans.

    They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.
    Bah, I think there's still some validity to them. I think that there are some unions associated with certain industries that do generally deserve the reputation more than others, but by and large people tend to see a few instanes of "union abuse" and suddenly decry them all as useless and corrupt. Further I think those who think that their use "has long since passed" are wearing extremely rose tinted glasses if they don't think that (big) business would squeeze the life out of it's employees if it could. They already arguably do this. My best friend is a pilot, some of the stories he has told me absolutely chill my blood. Short version is just be extremely thankful for the FAA and pilot unions, because if they didn't exist and lay down those large number of requirements that governs pilot working hours and downtime, the airlines would be forcing (and have tried to make) pilots work insane hours that go far beyond what would be safe. Imagine how many truck accidents there are each year from truckers falling asleep... now apply this to commercial jets.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Unions are NOT obsolete in any way. The problem with the unions in the US is that they are extraordinarily weak. They are complete pushovers compared to what a union should be capable of.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    And yet a strong union can be extremely destructive.
    "Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

    "The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"

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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.
    What a load. Unions are very nessisary. My mom is an EPA. Which is a fancy title for special needs child wrangler (and I do mean wrangler depending on the kid you get). And over the last few years the school board has tried to change her job from a mostly full time contracted salaried one to mostly part time casual one. To save money ofcourse. If an EPA is part time they can turf them easily and move them around. Her union is all that has stopped this from happening.


    Here's another story about unions. From the local hippie rag (IE free news paper)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Your bosses are being jerks. You're feeling exploited, overworked and underpaid. You'd like to quit, but can't afford to and besides, you actually love your job and the city where you work. Your last resort? Join your fellow workers and hit the bricks to get a fair contract. That's what 600 IWK health care professionals did last week when they walked off the job seeking the same benefits as their counterparts at the QE II hospital down the street. Of course, as union president Joan Jessome points out, the IWK is a children's hospital while the QE II serves adults. "I've heard this so many times," Jessome says. "You work for children and that's a calling, so you should work for less."

    The IWK strike lasted only one day. But it put pressure on the hospital and the provincial government to agree to the union's proposal for binding mediation, a process sometimes referred to as "baseball bargaining" because it's used to set major league players' salaries. If the two sides can't negotiate a contract, the mediator chooses one or the other of their final offers. That encourages both to compromise because the mediator will likely select the more reasonable offer. In this case, the health professionals got only part of what they wanted, but more than the IWK and the province had been willing to give. "I'm OK with the outcome," Jessome says. "But I'm not jumping for joy."

    The outcome of the IWK dispute is obviously important to union members because they're getting more money, better benefits and moving a step closer to parity with their professional colleagues at other Halifax hospitals. But it's just as significant for the rest of us because it will help the IWK retain the highly-trained physiotherapists, lab technologists, social workers, biomedical engineers and respiratory therapists that every modern hospital depends on. It will also make it easier for the IWK to recruit professionals at a time when hospitals in other provinces and the US are competing for skilled staff.

    Unfortunately though, the positive aspects of the settlement seemed to get lost in the media hysteria surrounding the one-day strike. Both Halifax papers condemned the workers after the hospital cancelled 59 surgeries and 474 outpatient appointments. The Daily News accused the union of using children as "bargaining chips," as though the IWK and the province bore no responsibility for the breakdown in talks. "For me, this is the bottom line," DN columnist David Rodenhiser huffed, "making children endure discomfort, fear and pain as a way to achieve contract concessions is unconscionable." Rodenhiser called on the province to ban health care strikes, a call echoed by the Herald's Marilla Stephenson. She predicted that Tories and Liberals will join forces in the legislature this fall to "make it so." Maybe, maybe not. When premier John Hamm tried it six years ago, nurses and other health workers threatened to resign en masse, the public supported the nurses and the government had to back down. It's hard to see why Rodney MacDonald would want to follow in Hamm's faltering footsteps, especially when last week's strike quickly led to a contract that's fair to workers and taxpayers and that helps protect the IWK's competitive position and quality of care. Besides, MacDonald's government already has plenty of power without banning the right to strike. For one thing, it can bring in back-to-work legislation to end any strike that seems to endanger people's lives.

    Perhaps it's too much to expect newspaper commentators to write about Canada's labour relations system in a fair and balanced way. As in the IWK strike, they usually side with employers and condemn workers for going on strike to fight for fair wages and benefits. But who would you rather support, front-line health professionals who provide care for hundreds of sick children every day or the administrators and politicians who sit in their offices courting the media and counting loonies?


    http://www.thecoast.ca/1editorialbod...-token.subpub=
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    I'm glad you are laughing Tribesman.
    Good, I'm happy I made you glad .
    you gotta admit it though , this......They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.
    ...is a very funny statement .

  13. #13
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Unions are NOT obsolete in any way. The problem with the unions in the US is that they are extraordinarily weak. They are complete pushovers compared to what a union should be capable of.
    Ah the ignorance is amazing here. Again, unions pretty much run the state in which I live in. Our main industry here is auto manufacturing. Guess who controls the auto manufacturers?

    When times were good, the auto manufacturers pretty much gave in to all the union demands so they could stay open and keep reaping enormous profits. When times are bad here though, the unions still want the same benefits and as a result the auto manufacturers are suffering, which means layoffs, which means nothing good for our economy.



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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Guess who controls the auto manufacturers?
    Shareholders.

    Duh.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Hmmm. Unions. Tough call.

    There are two unions that I sympathize with where I live: the nurses and the teachers. I sympathize with them mainly because I believe that the people who choose those two professions do so largely because they want to help and give back to society, even though it will never make them rich. For that reason, I think they would get completely walked on by the government if they didn't have a union to be their mouthpiece.

    OTOH, I think most other unions are nothing more than a refuge and shield for the untalented, unmotivated, or uneducated to try to demand more money than their services are actually worth, thereby artificially inflating prices for the rest of us.

    Good first post, CR.
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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Shareholders.

    Duh.
    That's exactly what I meant watchman.



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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    They served a purpose, but it seems like it's long since passed.


    These days, if your chosen career is welding part A to part B, your poor planning should be rewarded with low wages.

    Although, as Goof said, some unions such as the nurse's and teacher's have validity. However, teacher's unions are notoriously corrupt.

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    That's exactly what I meant watchman.
    You do know how chains-of-command work in the private sector these days, right ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    These days, if your chosen career is welding part A to part B, your poor planning should be rewarded with low wages.

    And when the 4x4 that daddy bought you falls apart because the person who welded part A to part B wasn't actually a welder you get the reward for low wages and an absence of unionised demarcation .

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice
    Ah the ignorance is amazing here. Again, unions pretty much run the state in which I live in. Our main industry here is auto manufacturing. Guess who controls the auto manufacturers?

    When times were good, the auto manufacturers pretty much gave in to all the union demands so they could stay open and keep reaping enormous profits. When times are bad here though, the unions still want the same benefits and as a result the auto manufacturers are suffering, which means layoffs, which means nothing good for our economy.
    Uhm, no, unions in the US are incredibly weak. Come to Europe, and you'll see what a union should be like. Take Norway, for example. Last fall during the national budget talks, the leader of our biggest union basically told our prime minister to sit down, shut up and do as she said(and he did, with barely any struggle). That's a strong union.

    I really can't see president bush being told what to do by a union leader in the US....
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  21. #21
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman

    And when the 4x4 that daddy bought you falls apart because the person who welded part A to part B wasn't actually a welder you get the reward for low wages and an absence of unionised demarcation .
    ...and when the Red Guards then hang us bourgeoise exploiters from traffic lights, I'm so going to go "told you so!" on you social-darwinists before the curtains close...

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Last fall during the national budget talks, the leader of our biggest union basically told our prime minister to sit down, shut up and do as she said(and he did, with barely any struggle). That's a strong union.
    Sounds like home.
    Last edited by Watchman; 05-15-2007 at 23:19.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  22. #22
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Uhm, no, unions in the US are incredibly weak. Come to Europe, and you'll see what a union should be like. Take Norway, for example. Last fall during the national budget talks, the leader of our biggest union basically told our prime minister to sit down, shut up and do as she said(and he did, with barely any struggle). That's a strong union.
    So a union should be able to order around the elected officials of a country? Um, no, thank you though.
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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Uhm, no, unions in the US are incredibly weak. Come to Europe, and you'll see what a union should be like. Take Norway, for example. Last fall during the national budget talks, the leader of our biggest union basically told our prime minister to sit down, shut up and do as she said(and he did, with barely any struggle). That's a strong union.
    So you think it's a good thing that the leader of a special interest group has the power to dictate policy to your elected leaders?

    I guess I really don't understand Europeans after all.
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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    It's worked pretty brilliantly for pretty much the whole Scandinavia for decades.

    And whose society and unions was it that don't suck, now ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    It's worked pretty brilliantly for pretty much the whole Scandinavia for decades.
    Sounds pretty bent to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    And whose society and unions was it that don't suck, now ?
    I don't understand that comment.
    "What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"

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  26. #26
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    *shrug* It works. Quite well too, although it's been hiccuping lately what with all this globalisation business and all. Sorta difficult to play hardball at the negotiation table if the other side is moving the factory to China anyway.

    I don't understand that comment.
    Who're the ones whining about corrupt and useless unions here ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  27. #27
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by Goofball
    So you think it's a good thing that the leader of a special interest group has the power to dictate policy to your elected leaders?

    I guess I really don't understand Europeans after all.
    A special interest group would be "The union of foot doctors". The union I'm talking about here, LO, basically represents the entire workforce. So yes, I want them to hold our PM by the ears every time he forgets he's a socialist and is seduced by the dark side of market liberalism...

    As Watchman says, the unions here are something of a 4th power of government, along with the media. They've become one of those institutions our entire society rests on.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 05-15-2007 at 23:45.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Dyslexic agnostic insomniac Senior Member Goofball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    A special interest group would be "The union of foot doctors". The union I'm talking about here, LO, basically represents the entire workforce.
    How can a single union represent an entire country's workforce? Does it represent public sector workers? Private sector workers? Police? Truckers? Teachers? Construction workers? Farm workers? Fishermen? Computer techs? Carpenters?

    Sorry, but I smell hyperbole.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    So yes, I want them to hold our PM by the ears every time he forgets he's a socialist and is seduced by the dark side of market liberalism...
    Yes, God forbid market demand should actually dictate the price we pay for things. We should have the unions and government tell us what we have to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    As Watchman says, the unions here are something of a 4th power of government, along with the media. They've become one of those institutions our entire society rests on.
    Scary and sad.
    "What, have Canadians run out of guns to steal from other Canadians and now need to piss all over our glee?"

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  29. #29
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    If you don't actually know about it, don't slam it so readily. This stuff was given some serious thought back when it got started, and leaving aside the bluff and bluster between the wage-payer and -earner reps in the yearly negotiations has more or less worked like a charm for, oh, depends a bit on the country, but many decades in all cases.

    But if you now really want I can go get my PolSci textbook and see if I can enlighten you about the intricacies.

    How can a single union represent an entire country's workforce? Does it represent public sector workers? Private sector workers? Police? Truckers? Teachers? Construction workers? Farm workers? Fishermen? Computer techs? Carpenters?
    Would the terms "umbrella organisation" or "designated representative" help ?

    Yes, God forbid market demand should actually dictate the price we pay for things. We should have the unions and government tell us what we have to pay.
    Pay, nothing. What ours in any case negotiate is stuff like pay hikes to keep pace with the inflation and turns of economy and so on, all the little sundry details of the worker/employer interface that need constant tweaking.

    Scary and sad.
    That very much sums up the general opinion on the US situation here, you know.
    Pot, kettle.

    Anyway, I don't really quite understand what you have against population segments' chosen representative organizations working things out with their peers and the governement at the negotiation table.
    Last edited by Watchman; 05-16-2007 at 00:12.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  30. #30

    Default Re: Thanks a lot, unions

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    A special interest group would be "The union of foot doctors". The union I'm talking about here, LO, basically represents the entire workforce. So yes, I want them to hold our PM by the ears every time he forgets he's a socialist and is seduced by the dark side of market liberalism...

    As Watchman says, the unions here are something of a 4th power of government, along with the media. They've become one of those institutions our entire society rests on.
    Is the Union leadership democratically chosen?

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