Winning Ugly

[drone]

Ah true, but lest we forget Mr Bush will still be about the public speaking circuit

Sorry, I just had visions of Bush doing public speaking. That concept just seems hilarious.

True, 44 will always be able to blame Bush for getting us into this mess. What we really need though is someone who doesn't care about re-election, and just does the best thing for the country. Not going to happen, but maybe after six months on the job, he/she will realize that their political career is over, and just do what needs to be done. Regardless, the Prez will have to fight a divided Congress, with each party desperately trying to lay blame on the other for the inevitable fiasco. Not a good situation for him/her, or us either.

[Tribesman]

It might be irrelevant anyway , the mandate is up for renewal soon and the Iraqi government has tabled a bill to remove all coilition forces from the country .

[Odin]

It might be irrelevant anyway , the mandate is up for renewal soon and the Iraqi government has tabled a bill to remove all coilition forces from the country .

Ahhh thank you tribesman you've presented an alternative in 08, This might be a nice out for the next president, not only can they blame Mr Bush for going in, but they can blame the Iraqi's for kicking us out.

Dont tell Mr McCain though, id rather like to see him own part of this political baggage. Its a crap situation because no matter how it ends no one falls into this pile of dung and smells like roses.

least of all the sods left on the streets of Iraq to deal with the death squads once we do finally leave.

[ShadeHonestus]

I really believe that our course of action in Iraq is not going to be the deciding issue in '08. I believe that our decision in '08 will decide our path but there are some very large elephants in the room which I believe might decide our fate over there. Democrats allowing the tax cuts to expire is one that comes to mind...what is it? 8 million people not previously paying will be forced to file, the 10% bracekt being bumped up to the 15% bracket all the while the rate of new and higher tax registration has grown in record numbers under those cuts. Forget about winning ugly in Iraq, winning or losing we will take our lumps there, while winning or losing ugly at home.

[Lemur]

Could you elaborate on that, SH? How will the expiring tax cuts decide what happens in Iraq?

[ShadeHonestus]

Could you elaborate on that, SH? How will the expiring tax cuts decide what happens in Iraq?

Sure Lemur...

Its one of the elephants in the room that I believe will decide the election. I personally pray that our populace will not try and decide the election on the war and that's not just my Republican side speaking the elephants trumpet in both directions. For anyone to think that given what we've seen and heard they will somehow vote the Iraq war out of existence or vote it into hugs and kisses acceptance is doing our process a disservice. Therefore the rest of the issues will indirectly decide what happens in Iraq.

[macsen rufus]

After reading the title I was a little disappointed this wasn't a thread about British babes...

but even so, I do believe that Iraq will have its full-blown civil war, the only question is when, and how many foreign (ie non-Iraqi) troops get caught in the crossfire. Sectarianism is an ugly thing, and will only lay down and learn to cooperate once the various parties get heartily sick of fighting. Amazing as it may be at this stage, it still seems some Iraqis still have an appetite for further violence. I'm sure the majority are ready to let bygones be bygones and get on with a normal life again, but of course its what minorities are doing that's the problem. I'm not claiming any great similarities, but ultimately it wasn't due to British military presence that the Irish troubles seem to be entering an end-phase now. BOTH sides - UK govt and the Republican movement accepted that there was no "military win" possible.

I don't really like the idea of this "ugly win" -- backing one side in the hope that it will serve the interests of an outside party. That's partly how Saddam become so entrenched in power. Back in the days of the Iran-Iraq war, lest anyone forget, certain outside parties (and I'm not just pointing at the US here, France and Britain were in there too) were happy to prop up Saddam and sell weapons etc when it looked like he was, if not our friend, at least our enemy's enemy. If anything, the "ugly win" is just resetting the clock on another disastrous "long-timescale lose". Better to let the local shake-down happen, withdraw any external scapegoats the locals can use to justify their sectarian violence, and see what emerges from the dust. I strongly suspect it won't be "Iraq" anymore, though.