I thought I'd lost these images but, thanks to Sinan, I just rediscovered them hiding in my /tgas folder.
They document the victory of flaming arrows over wooden seige equipment. Contrary to the claims made by some members it proves they do work.
The First Wave: Swiss Guard in the service of the pope.
Don't worry lads those fire arrows are useless - never hit a thing.
Tell that to Hugo - damned polyester uniforms.
Damn! now thats not supposed to happen. I knew I should have volunteered for the ladder corps.
There goes the Papal seige tower. That'll teach them to use oil based paint.
And they think its all over - well it is now - The last Papal ram joins the rest of the charcoal at the foot of my walls.
As you can see acheived with three units of Desert Archers plus the arrows from the towers. The Mercenary Crossbow men obvously didn't contribute as they can't use fire arrows.
Glad they work for someone. I never use flaming arrows these days. I almost religiously use crossbows as my wall's missile units. They work better for taking out more people anyway, flaming arrows are hit or miss it seems.
Tschüß!
Erich
Things are getting better. Well, not as good as yesterday, but definitely better than tomorrow! ~Old Russian Joke
Didz, I hate to rain on your parade here... but those screenshots are in no way shape or form 'proof' that fire arrows did the work. If anything, given the proximity of the rams to your walls, I don't think your archers could have caused them to burn at all due to the angle, so it most likely WAS your wall towers. If you are really dead set on proving this, mod your game and remove flaming arrows from your wall towers.
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
Since installing the official 1.2 patch I've seen far more siege engines burning, both mine and my enemy's engines. I like it, it makes me *want* to take a couple extra towers just in case!
Oh, yeah, first post. I figure it's about time I registered after lurking for years.
I love the shots, LOL! the captions are HILARIOUS !
We still need a definitive conclusion to if fire arrows work or not.
As long as we have fire arrows and towers both shooting we cannot determine who dealt the destruction.
The best way is to temporarily disable towers and then try a series of test battles, about 5 should suffice. Then we can rest this case.
Volunteers ?
Don't say me because I'm loaded till the next 30 hours...
If you remember me from M:TW days add me on Steam, do mention your org name.
Fire arrows do work, but are very ineffective.
Just have a few archers with fire arrows on standby near the enemy's spare rams and wait for his main ram to burn. The AI will then come by with a unit to pick up the spare ram which is quite far out of the range of your towers and you can watch it burn.
Fire arrows do work, but are very ineffective.
Just have a few archers with fire arrows on standby near the enemy's spare rams and wait for his main ram to burn. The AI will then come by with a unit to pick up the spare ram which is quite far out of the range of your towers and you can watch it burn.
I agree. I had an enemy ram crew assault a low-level settlement (just picket fence walls that archers fire over almost flat) that had a U shaped approach to the gate. The ram made it up to the gate, but got stalled there as the fire-arrow-shooting peasant archers I had deployed on the sides of the U continuously burned the ram crew (it was really hilarious, just when they'd be ready to swing the ram again, the archers would immolate 3+ more guys and replacements would saunter forward). It went on like that for a while, but eventually the ram did catch on fire. This may be noteworthy because it looked like those low-level towers couldn't have been shooting the ram while it was at the gate, and the next closest 2 were decidedly out of range and possibly even unmanned. I don't remember what the towers' max angle of fire looks like (though I know I read it in the files at some point), but I'm guessing ~45 degrees, which would definitely have ruled them out if it is the case. The ram was basically at the base of the towers, more like a 75 or 80 degree downward shot.
But yeah, my experience basically says the fire arrows do work, though it's very poorly on anything except men (which isn't all that bad: I find it joyful to watch animated men catching on fire, for some reason).
Oh, yeah, first post. I figure it's about time I registered after lurking for years.
Greetings!
On the subject, it's notable that Desert Archers were used here. Desert Archers are pretty good, with a base attack of 7 compared to an archer militia attack of 5.
I assume that a unit with a high base attack has a high fire arrow attack.
[Edited P.S.] Desert archers also have longer ranget than militia types.
Last edited by Doug-Thompson; 05-16-2007 at 02:03.
"In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."
Didz, I hate to rain on your parade here... but those screenshots are in no way shape or form 'proof' that fire arrows did the work. If anything, given the proximity of the rams to your walls, I don't think your archers could have caused them to burn at all due to the angle, so it most likely WAS your wall towers. If you are really dead set on proving this, mod your game and remove flaming arrows from your wall towers.
Well to be honest it was never my intention to exclude the fire arrows fired by the towers from the equation. After all if you are defending a settlement the towers will be firing fire arrows.
And personally I can't see much point in using fire arrows other than for destroying seige equipment. Except of course to conserve ammunition which I so sometimes do.
On the subject, it's notable that Desert Archers were used here. Desert Archers are pretty good, with a base attack of 7 compared to an archer militia attack of 5.
I assume that a unit with a high base attack has a high fire arrow attack.
I was just going to ask that question. I'm curious as to whether or not missile damage has any effect on the % chance of catching siege equipment on fire.
Also, I'll just add that I have intentionally burned catapults and trebuchets all the time with fire arrows. I know it's not the same, but it still is further evidence that these things are supposed to happen
Perhaps I should rephrase my comments earlier. I don't think anyone here will disagree that fire arrows do light up enemy siege equipment from time to time. The point of contention is how effective they really are vs. tower fire arrows. Thus was my suggestion for modding the game and removing flaming arrows from the towers, and trying to gauge how effective fire archery units would be.
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
I think the distance to target and number of arrows hitting is more important than damage itself.
There also seems a minimum threshold that needs to be reached for fire arrows to burn equipment (or say a catapult), not only a fixed low chance.
They are much less effective than tower flames though, which can cause a ram/tower to burn at the first hit.
I think the main problem is that you can't target the siege engine itself (or maybe that's just me ? Also, I haven't tried burning towers, only rams). Your archers really target the men lugging it around, not the engine itself, meaning only a bunch of stray arrows do hit whatever contraption you wanna cook up.
I think the main problem is that you can't target the siege engine itself (or maybe that's just me ? Also, I haven't tried burning towers, only rams). Your archers really target the men lugging it around, not the engine itself, meaning only a bunch of stray arrows do hit whatever contraption you wanna cook up.
I dunno about that. I seem to be able to click the ram itself just fine to target it. It's impossible to tell whether the archers target the 6 or so men that are lugging it around or are targeting the actual ram, but certainly they are not firing at the center of the entire unit attached to the ram, as their usual practice would be if they just targeted the unit as a whole. In my example above about burning a ram while it was at the gate, whole flights of arrows were landing directly on and around the exact spot the ram was on.
BTW I'm not sure right now what exactly you mean by targeting the "men lugging it around" though I've interpreted that as the entire associated unit, since you describe only strays hitting the actual ram. With that in mind, I hope my explanation and understanding is sufficient.
It's possible what you're seeing is separate arrow-targeting issues. If you're firing grouped archers or have your archers set to fire at will, they will often not target what you actually click on. Grouped archers seem to love to each select the closest enemy unit to them as a target instead of whatever I indicate, and archers on fire at will seem to be prone to similar target selection, just on a per-unit level (i.e. even if you only have one selected they can decide to shoot a different target than you indicate). At least, that's been my experience, so if I intend to designate targets (almost always) then my archers receive orders one unit at a time, and never have their fire-at-will mode on. It's also possible (nay, I vote it likely) that those targeting routines do not include siege equipment as potential targets, in which case even if you order them to attack the ram as a group or with fire-at-will on, you'll probably never even get them to accidentally shoot it as the closest target.
I think the main problem is that you can't target the siege engine itself (or maybe that's just me ?
No, you can target the ram itself, though someone suggested that you should not do this but should target the unit pushing it as it increases the number of hits acheived.
Personally, I've tried both, but the inaccuracy of fire arrows means it doesn't make a lot of difference as far as I can see. It does make a difference with seige towers though, and I always target the tower not the men pushing it. That way the archers fire at the top and sides of the tower rather than its foot.
@Foz : nah, I never group anyone up when I'm defending a city, so that can't be it, although I do keep them on fire at will most of the time. But since you all say targetting the ram separately is possible, I guess I didn't try hard enough. Hovering the mouse over both the ram and the unit (and yes, btw, by "the men lugging it around", I meant the whole unit) showed me the same tooltip, so I assumed it counted as the same target... I'll have to try again.
But back on topic, after my last assault on that castle north of Scotland, I'd say fire arrows do work.
I had a tower set ablaze that I had made doubly sure was in a dead angle from the nearby towers (plus they were both busy shooting juicy peasants deployed right in front of them for their personnal enjoyment), but there was one unit of peasant archers volleying it. They finally managed to set it on fire just as my own Norse Archers were starting to unload sedately (since, you know, you lads had me convinced they weren't in any real danger ), but thankfully most of them made it to the relative safety of the unmanned rempart before the tower crumbled...only to rout immediately afterwards... right through a bunch of Highlanders.
What's weird is that the peasants hit my tower a whole lot, but the damage was still 0%, and then one hit set it to 20something% and burning fairly quick. It's like "safe...safe...perfectly safe...BROKEN, ROW FOR YOUR LIIIIIVES !" . Which is perhaps why you guys doubt they work ? I'd wager everyhit has a chance to work, but that chance is really, really low to give the sieger a sporting chance.
No, you can target the ram itself, though someone suggested that you should not do this but should target the unit pushing it as it increases the number of hits acheived.
Personally, I've tried both and not noticed much difference, the inaccuracy of fire arrows means it doesn't make a lot of difference as far as I can see. It does make a difference with seige towers though, and I always target the tower not the men pushing it. That way the archers fire at the top and sides of the tower rather than its foot.
True. I probably should've noted that I was (and am) using Lusted's LTC 2.3 projectile files, which make arrows (presumably fire included) considerably more accurate. That's probably why I can actually tell that my guys are shooting at the ram instead of the unit.
True. I probably should've noted that I was (and am) using Lusted's LTC 2.3 projectile files, which make arrows (presumably fire included) considerably more accurate. That's probably why I can actually tell that my guys are shooting at the ram instead of the unit.
Ah! well this is always the problem with discussions on this forum. There are so many mods around its impossible to establish whether we are all singing from the same hymn sheet.
Reminds me of the guy who was complaining that his city had just been overrun by two units of uber-peasants, only to admit later that he had been fiddling with his combat settings to try and improve historical accuracy on the battlefield.
One thing I noticed was that the OP had used large unit sizes (archer unit has 120 soldiers). I usually use the standard size (60 archers per unit). So, could it be that the size of the units used plays a big factor here. In my case, it would be 3 x 60 archers shooting at the ram (using the same army setup), whereas in OP's case it's 3 x 120archers shooting at the very same ram... Twice as many arrows should burn the ram with higher probability.
On unrelated note, using casual obervation, I have had more luck burnign seige equipment using "fire at will" rather than trying to target anything in particular.
True. I probably should've noted that I was (and am) using Lusted's LTC 2.3 projectile files, which make arrows (presumably fire included) considerably more accurate. That's probably why I can actually tell that my guys are shooting at the ram instead of the unit.
I seem to remember a certain Foz lecturing people about not discussing strategy in the game at all if they have modded the time scale because their game play would be fundamentally different than everyone else's.
It is truly inconceivable to play the vanilla for me. Didz once you go black you never go back... or so they say. Sure held true for me, as far as M2:TW is concerned. If you need some recommendations, instructions or assistance I'll be glad to help. You'll never play vanilla again, that's for sure. Mods are doing for M2:TW what water does for life. You guys don't know what you are missing. With the level of GFX M2:TW has achieved there are a lot of simple GFX mods whihc make the game unbeatable. It is not only about GFX, you can mod the game so easily for the most part, you can even give every nation a strategic profile, mods only deepen the game. Just look at Broken Crescent, 120 new units, hundreds of ancillarys, traits, triggers, completely new map, all the way to DELHI. There's so much much improved.
Can you find this in vanilla:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Look at the detail on the Frank, check the Fleur de Lis. Look at the Islanders in the background, look at the horse barding.
Look at the armor on these guys.
Vanilla Pikemen compared to these.. not for me.
Before and after, any comparison. Nope.
Those are very simple images of a very basic mod: Burrek's Europeans.
The vanilla game is just awful, in comparison. No offence guys, that's my opinion. Hope you can respect it, as I respect yours; that vanilla is great. I do not share it though but I appreciate that this is your view. I'm not dissing it either, I'm attempting to show another aspect.
I will do my tests in vanilla 1.20 for community value, when I actually get through all the rest I have to do.
I've had 5 Retiunues fail to burn a single ram on many occasions. There is no doubt that they do work, but to what degree ? How many Archers are enough ?
I'd recommend that someone just do it if they have the time.
It will settle the issue and we will have a concrete quantitative conclusion, along these lines (<-link)
Last edited by Shahed; 05-16-2007 at 17:22.
If you remember me from M:TW days add me on Steam, do mention your org name.
One thing I noticed was that the OP had used large unit sizes (archer unit has 120 soldiers). I usually use the standard size (60 archers per unit).
Thats a very good point. I always play with 'Huge Units' set becuase I like my armies to look as much like armies as I can. But it does make a lot of difference not just to the effectiveness of 'fire arrows'. The ram is just one ram even with Huge set but its now getting pelted with twice as many arrows from the same number of units.
Originally Posted by Sinan
It is truly inconceivable to play the vanilla for me. Didz once you go black you never go back... or so they say.
I have considered it on several occassions but I don't have any real issues with the vanilla version so its never seemed worth the hassle.
If anything the problems some people had with 1.2 have made me even more cautious, my upgrade went without a hitch.
BTW: Nifty, trick with the hidden images how did you achevie that? (is it a standard control feature somewhere)
Thats a very good point. I always play with 'Huge Units' set becuase I like my armies to look as much like armies as I can. But it does make a lot of difference not just to the effectiveness of 'fire arrows'. The ram is just one ram even with Huge set but its now getting pelted with twice as many arrows from the same number of units.
You and Sinan bring up a good point. I seem to recall that there were some mechanics in RTW that specifically scaled with unit sizes, garrison value being a specific one. It could very well be that the probability for siege equipment ignition is coded up to account for different unit sizes and for projectile output. /shrug
"Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
that which is his due." - Justinian I
It is truly inconceivable to play the vanilla for me. Didz once you go black you never go back... or so they say. Sure held true for me, as far as M2:TW is concerned. If you need some recommendations, instructions or assistance I'll be glad to help. You'll never play vanilla again, that's for sure. Mods are doing for M2:TW what water does for life. You guys don't know what you are missing. With the level of GFX M2:TW has achieved there are a lot of simple GFX mods whihc make the game unbeatable. It is not only about GFX, you can mod the game so easily for the most part, you can even give every nation a strategic profile, mods only deepen the game. Just look at Broken Crescent, 120 new units, hundreds of ancillarys, traits, triggers, completely new map, all the way to DELHI. There's so much much improved.
Can you find this in vanilla:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Look at the detail on the Frank, check the Fleur de Lis. Look at the Islanders in the background, look at the horse barding.
Look at the armor on these guys.
Vanilla Pikemen compared to these.. not for me.
Before and after, any comparison. Nope.
Those are very simple images of a very basic mod: Burrek's Europeans.
The vanilla game is just awful, in comparison. No offence guys, that's my opinion. Hope you can respect it, as I respect yours; that vanilla is great. I do not share it though but I appreciate that this is your view. I'm not dissing it either, I'm attempting to show another aspect.
I will do my tests in vanilla 1.20 for community value, when I actually get through all the rest I have to do.
I've had 5 Retiunues fail to burn a single ram on many occasions. There is no doubt that they do work, but to what degree ? How many Archers are enough ?
I'd recommend that someone just do it if they have the time.
It will settle the issue and we will have a concrete quantitative conclusion, along these lines (<-link)
Look at the...what the? Phantom horses!!! (no legs or lower body?)
Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
Seiges: Proof that fire arrows do work.
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Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
Re: Seiges: Proof that fire arrows do work.
), but thankfully most of them made it to the relative safety of the unmanned rempart before the tower crumbled...only to rout immediately afterwards... right through a bunch of Highlanders. 
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