Billmen

[Mithradates]

Quick question what is the function of billmen they seem week against both infantry and cavalry just wondering if anyone could clear this up for me as at the moment i am at a loss.

[FactionHeir]

While CA did improve the performance of 2H units with 1.02, their animations are still very slow, especially 2 out of the 3 attack animations (the swinging ones). As such, they still get interrupted quite often or their attacks blocked.

[Silverhawk]

One thing I've found Billmen really useful for is breaking up the inevitable French Armoured spearman blocks you face 20-60 turns in (that is, if you've not smashed them by this time). Spearman for spearman, the French will generally grind English armies back but a head-on charge with Billmen breaks their lines up really well. They also chew up Knights if you can catch them in the flank or rear after they get tied up on braced spears.

[Andaius]

The first level billmen also have very low armor so don't stand very long head to head, however they make exellent flankers. They have weapons that are effective against armor so can eat them alive. Armored Billmen have better armor so can take a frontal attack better but I still prefer Sword & shield troops for the Anti-spear/Infantry work. So generally speaking use them on the flanks or rear of armored opponets for maximum effectiveness!

[Doug-Thompson]

They are cheap.

Billman cannot beat good infantry 1 vs. 1, but can 3 vs. 2 or so. They survive combat with infantry better than spear units.

[Silverhawk]

Here's some testing I did of Billmen...

Billmen (armour upgrade 1) vs Armoured Sergeants (HUGE unit settings, med difficulty, grassy plains. Billmen always listed first, deployed in three ranks to get similar unit width as spears have in four. Numbers listed are remaining men at the time of rout).

73 - 67 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 50 on billmen charge)
71 - 62 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 50 on billmen charge)
48 - 79 (Billmen lose, Sergeants lost appox 30 on billmen charge)
84 - 70 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 55 and general on charge)
67 - 54 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 45 on billmen charge)

The numbers aren't scientifically gathered, they were grabbed by me without pausing just because I wanted it done quick, but they won't be more than 3-5 off at most, which gives a reasonable variance for accuracy. They stand up quite well against good spears. :)

[Doug-Thompson]

Here's something I've never tried, but will someday:

1. Build militia units of archers, billmen and even militia merchant cavalry, and keep them in cities where upkeep is free.

2. Build some fleets at those cities.

3. Move the militia onto the ships and have a leader on one of the ships. Have them rendezvous at sea.

4. Land on an enemy coast near a coastal city. Build siege equipment. On the next turn, assault and take it.

Should be a cheap way to organize an offensive. Well, cheap except for the fleets.

[Von Nanega]

Doug-Thompson, I will try that now. Might as well! If it does not work, out of some militia.

[Foz]

Here's some testing I did of Billmen...

Billmen (armour upgrade 1) vs Armoured Sergeants (HUGE unit settings, med difficulty, grassy plains. Billmen always listed first, deployed in three ranks to get similar unit width as spears have in four. Numbers listed are remaining men at the time of rout).

73 - 67 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 50 on billmen charge)
71 - 62 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 50 on billmen charge)
48 - 79 (Billmen lose, Sergeants lost appox 30 on billmen charge)
84 - 70 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 55 and general on charge)
67 - 54 (Billmen win, Sergeants lost approx 45 on billmen charge)

The numbers aren't scientifically gathered, they were grabbed by me without pausing just because I wanted it done quick, but they won't be more than 3-5 off at most, which gives a reasonable variance for accuracy. They stand up quite well against good spears. :)

Note the armor upgrade 1 on the Billmen in this test. It is hugely important that you give your Billmen at least the first upgrade, as it boosts their defense 4 points. Even so, I wouldn't fight them against a non-spear unit from the front - they get slaughtered by units with good weapons b/c of their low defense. As mentioned earlier in the thread, they are best put to use as the hammer to your cheap spear anvil. They pack one of the biggest wallops available with a 15/ap attack, especially when you consider how early they become available. They are a bit fragile, but are quite amazing if employed as suggested.

[HoreTore]

As Foz said, give them the leather armour and don't send them head-on at sword units, you have your english knights for that job. It's an early unit, so that should give you some idea of what to use it against. You can flank pretty much everything with them, but be careful of charging anything stronger than spearmen head-on(and armoured spears are pushing it, make sure you have some reinforcements appear to break them).

So, for the natural enemies of the english, this means the following units are fair game:

- All missiles(well not the late tough archers, like the scots guard)
- Town milita
- spear milita
- peasants, pilgrims and fanatics
- sergeant spearmen
- highland pikes
- viking raiders
- Merc, armoured and crusader spearmen

[Aquitaine]

Given this information, why and when would you recruit billmen and not, say, armored swordsmen or DFK?

Do billmen have a place in a late-game English army in 1.2? I loved my billmen in MTW, and I played the English under 1.0 and just never used them.

[HoreTore]

The armoured swordsmen and DFK can hold the line, but they can't kill a bunch of people quickly to cause a rout. That's when you need the billmen. This can be performed by cavalry too, but with cav, you only get the charge power. After that, they'll be bogged down and killed. The billmen can continue killing for some time after that.

Remember that there are 3 levels of "Billmen" - billmen for the early period, and dismounted english knights and heavy bills for the late period. They perform the same role in their period. When given the choice of heavy bills vs DEK, the choice is obviously DEK. However, DEK have two drawbacks - they cost more and are harder to produce. So, get billmen in the early period, DEK in the late period, with heavy billmen mixed in to save money where the power of the DEK isn't needed. The only difference in tactics with billmen vsh. billmen/DEK, is that the latter are armoured, and so they have a good staying power in addition. DEK can actually be used very well in the main line. Alternating DEK/Armoured swordsmen is a good line.

[Kobal2fr]

Yes, from what I've witnessed, 2-handers are now a kind of "foot cav", in that they usually get trounced in a protracted fight, but their charges are brutal if you can get that solid "trumpet sound, warcry, rushing with weapons overhead" charge instead of just running/walking into melee (EDIT : oh, and if you can get the WHOLE UNIT to do it, not just Joe and Bob who were drunk enough to charge, with the rest of the unit watching and joining them later on :) ). After that charge, they are at a disadvantage since they lack shields and most of the time armor as well.

Which makes them good cheap flankers and/or second line, I've even used manipular tactics with them : a checkerboard pattern of spearmen or DFKs and 2-handers ready to countercharge in the breaches.

[Foz]

Given this information, why and when would you recruit billmen and not, say, armored swordsmen or DFK?

Do billmen have a place in a late-game English army in 1.2? I loved my billmen in MTW, and I played the English under 1.0 and just never used them.

Well as someone pointed out in the later periods they are still cheap and pretty cost-effective for flanking in the higher versions.

At their lowest form, the regular billmen are great as they are the first decent infantry that you can get your hands on. With the lowered population growth rate in 1.2, castles take longer than ever to flip into fortresses. Billmen are available in castles w/ the appropriate barracks building, where you have to wait a long time to get to fortress level in order to get to armored swordsmen, DFK, and heavier units. For as ridiculously cheap as they are, Billmen are definitely a good unit to produce heavily until you can get your hands on better things (that can be a while, especially if you flip Nottingham to a city, since Caen starts with a pretty poor pop level). Of course you'll want the usual spearmen to go along with them and pin the enemy down for them, but it's not like that's a problem at all since 5/7 spearmen clones are available everywhere for England, and you also have places to pick up merc spears too.

[Silverhawk]

Note the armor upgrade 1 on the Billmen in this test. It is hugely important that you give your Billmen at least the first upgrade, as it boosts their defense 4 points.

I've always assumed that if you're going to produce any sort of mediocre spears/billmen units in an English army then they're going to have some form of armour upgrade, so a blank test seemed rather irrelevant.

But, yes, for the rest of your points I wholeheartedly agree. There's certainly no point in sending them head-on into swords, foot knights, or any sort of non-spear/archer unit unless you want them to die in droves. They're fantastic for flanking, much like foot "cavalry" as has been mentioned already, but with how easily they can be produced (from Caen with one upgrade, so turn three or four?) they can help smash a few holes into the early French lines for a really, really cheap (and easily replaced) price.

Then again, I just love them anyway, so I'm likely to be biased.