Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick!!! Check out this poll on American Muslims!!!

[Devastatin Dave]

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=329
So, a 1/4 of American Muslim men believe that suicide bombings are justified!!! Hmmm... I'd like to hear your opinions on this.

[Don Corleone]

Muslim American young men (<30). The number drops to about 18% when posed of Muslim American men in general.

Even so, I was rather disturbed by this number.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I believe it's roughly similar in Britain and France. It seems to me it's very easy to support extremists from your Council Flat in Blighty, in rather tha same way it's easy to support rebels from your Mansion in the US.

[FactionHeir]

You might as well ask how many people find the Iraq invasion to be justified (still quite a large number), the use of torture on 'Enemy combatants' [which already shows the attitude of the government to to their human rights] (many American soldiers do) or even the constant invasions and airstrikes onto Gaza. (I bet you can get over 60% of people in Israel to support that, just as you can get that number in Palestine in terms of fighting back at Israel)

Just because people believe something to be justified doesn't mean they will do it. They only support the cause/rationale/principle/means. And focussing on one demographic group and the stereotype (i.e. Muslim = bad = bomber) does nothing to help end the violence either.

One also ought to note that suicide bombings are the weapons of the poor, those who cannot afford military training, large armies and advanced weaponry, let alone airplanes or tanks. If you were to give say the militants the same training soldiers in other countries get, you likely would see less random rocket attacks and more targeted operations at the military level.

[Odin]

Frankly it dosent surprise me one bit, of course if the Bushy's had made a similar proclomation prior it would have been racial profiling, or some civil right would have been trampled on.

Funny, my old man used to tell me that sterotypes are often based on peoples expirence and have some basis in truth although warped through the perception of a group will (something like that).

Thankfully they live in a country that affords them the right to state and voice that opinion, but now that the cats out of the bag (yuk, yuk) dont get caught making anti muslim statements, or tieing radiaclism into a particular group because the political correct police come with a big stick.

Who knows, maybe you'll end up on Al Sharpton's radio show.

Disclaimer: The views and opinions expressed by Odin are soely his own and dont represent the views of other, namely the org, its posters, the woman who just passed by his desk, the child he saw standing at the bus stop or the vending machine repair man he said hello too 2 weeks prior.

[Don Corleone]

I believe it's roughly similar in Britain and France. It seems to me it's very easy to support extremists from your Council Flat in Blighty, in rather tha same way it's easy to support rebels from your Mansion in the US.

This will probably come as a shock to you, but most of us don't actually live in mansions. The newly immigrated especially tend to find themselves in less than fantastic living accomodations. Your co-op apartment in Brighton Beach would probably be a more accurate locale for Yusuf.

[English assassin]

The survey shows that although many Muslims are relative newcomers to the U.S., they are highly assimilated into American society. On balance, they believe that Muslims coming to the U.S. should try and adopt American customs, rather than trying to remain distinct from the larger society. And by nearly two-to-one (63%-32%) Muslim Americans do not see a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society.

Hmm. THIS bit seems OK

I made it 7% said suicide bombings against civilian targets could "sometimes" be justified, 1% said they were justified. And its not obvious whether they were thinking of pelestinians bombing in Israel (which I do not agree with but is not quite the same as bloewing yourself up on Broadway.)

Still not wonderful, I grant you.

I wonder where they got the UK comparison figures from? Those sure are not being shared with us over here.

[Ser Clegane]

http://people-press.org/reports/disp...3?ReportID=329
So, a 1/4 of American Muslim men believe that suicide bombings are justified!!! Hmmm... I'd like to hear your opinions on this.

Quite worrying actually (even the actual numbers that are obviously different from the ones quoted above ).

On another note - I would be interested to see a similar poll among all citizens of the US (or alternatively for the European countries on the list), with a question like:
"Can the bombing of civilian targets be justified in the defense of freedom?"

I have to admit that I am not entirely convinced that we would end up significantly below 1% for "often" and 7% for "sometimes"...

[Devastatin Dave]

On another note - I would be interested to see a similar poll among all citizens of the US (or alternatively for the European countries on the list), with a question like:
"Can the bombing of civilian targets be justified in the defense of freedom?"

Ah, yes, its much more important to kill innocent people (some would call "infidels") for Islam than it is for freedom. Good comparrison

[Ser Clegane]

Ah, yes, its much more important to kill innocent people (some would call "infidels") for Islam than it is for freedom. Good comparrison

Depends on which concept you value more. I value my freedom more than my religion - apparently others value their religion higher than their freedom.
I would not support the bombing of civilians for either. Would you support bombing civilians (some would call "freedom-haters") for your freedom?

[Devastatin Dave]

Depends on which concept you value more. I value my freedom more than my religion - apparently others value their religion higher than their freedom.
I would not support the bombing of civilians for either. Would you support bombing civilians (some would call "freedom-haters") for your freedom?

One involves the actual targetting of civilians. No, I do not support bombing of civilians. You do understand that they are targeting civilians right? You not too PC-brainwahsed to understand that concept, correct?

[Ser Clegane]

One involves the actual targetting of civilians. No, I do not support bombing of civilians. You do understand that they are targeting civilians right? You not too PC-brainwahsed to understand that concept, correct?

First:
I note that you resort to personal attacks

Second:
I suggested a poll question that had the same wording as in the poll you linked to.
You stated that bombing civilians for Islam is not comparable to bombing civilians for freedom which looked a bit like you would consider bombing civilians for the latter to be more acceptable. I am glad that we apparently agree that this is not the case.
So what was your problem with the poll question I suggested?

[Devastatin Dave]

First:
I note that you resort to personal attacks

Second:
I suggested a poll question that had the same wording as in the poll you linked to.
You stated that bombing civilians for Islam is not comparable to bombing civilians for freedom which looked a bit like you would consider bombing civilians for the latter to be more acceptable. I am glad that we apparently agree that this is not the case.
So what was your problem with the poll question I suggested?

I didn't resort to a personal attack. I'm just pointing out that you have the PC mindset that suicide bombings are equivilant to bombing civilians in the name of freedom. Could you tell me which conflict involved the premeditated bombing of civilians in the name of freedom? WW2 maybe? Vietnam? The current conflict in Iraq? Does this poll not trouble you in the least? Do you not see the danger in this?

[Devastatin Dave]

apparently others value their religion higher than their freedom.

So you're cool with them killing you or your family in the name of Allah? How progressive of you.

[HoreTore]

Make a poll asking americans(or indeed any other country) whether it's justified to invade another country and kill people there...

[Ser Clegane]

I didn't resort to a personal attack.

Sorry - I consider calling somebody "brainwashed" to be a personal attack in a context like this discussion.
I'll keep in mind that you see this differently.

I'm just pointing out that you have the PC mindset that suicide bombings are equivilant to bombing civilians in the name of freedom. Could you tell me which conflict involved the premeditated bombing of civilians in the name of freedom? WW2 maybe? Vietnam? The current conflict in Iraq?

Actually I did not refer to a specific conflict but to a hypothetical question:
"Can the bombing of civilian targets be justified in the defense of freedom?"

I am not sure why you think that in this question this refers to "collateral damage" while in the question in the original poll it refers to intentionally targeting civilians - please explain.

So you're cool with them killing you or your family in the name of Allah? How progressive of you

Perhaps I should repeat what I posted previously in case it did not get noticed:

I would not support the bombing of civilians for either

The same in this case:

Does this poll not trouble you in the least? Do you not see the danger in this?

Quite worrying actually (even the actual numbers that are obviously different from the ones quoted above)

[HoreTore]

Or if that's not in your taste, ask christians if they are willing to die/kill for their lord. Or a westerner if he is willing to die/kill defending democracy, free speech, whatever...

[Devastatin Dave]

Or if that's not in your taste, ask christians if they are willing to die/kill for their lord. Or a westerner if he is willing to die/kill defending democracy, free speech, whatever...

I'll post the polls if you can provide the evidence that "christians" and "westerners" are as prone to violent actions as followers of Islam are.

[Ser Clegane]

Or if that's not in your taste, ask christians if they are willing to die/kill for their lord.

I think if you would ask:
"Can the bombing of civilian targets be justified in the defense of Christianity?" you very likely would get (significantly) lower percentages of "positive" answers.

[Idaho]

Doesn't suprise me. If I was asked the question in certain ways I would say that suicide attacks are justified:
eg:

• Do you think it is justified for an officer to command a soldier into an attack that will certanly end in his death?
• Do you think that in a war suicide attacks are ever justified?
• Do you think that suicide attackers believe themselves to be justified?

etc.

Pretty thread to be honest Dave. You right-wingers are on the backfoot a bit these days.

[FactionHeir]

I'll post the polls if you can provide the evidence that "christians" and "westerners" are as prone to violent actions as followers of Islam are.

Thats a generalization right there. Not all followers of Islam are prone to violent actions, at least not those I know of. There are those groups within a demographic population that are prone to violence, but you will find them in any religion, save the pacifist ones.

[Devastatin Dave]

No wonder Europe is becoming Eurabia. You guys are going to keep apologizing for these folks until they exterminate the lot of you.
I hope that iron turtle necks become the fashion trend soon so that some of you "enlightened" guys have a chance.

[Don Corleone]

Doesn't suprise me. If I was asked the question in certain ways I would say that suicide attacks are justified:
eg:

• Do you think it is justified for an officer to command a soldier into an attack that will certanly end in his death?
• Do you think that in a war suicide attacks are ever justified?
• Do you think that suicide attackers believe themselves to be justified?

etc.

Pretty thread to be honest Dave. You right-wingers are on the backfoot a bit these days.

Erh, and you need to get your reading scrip checked. You've completely missed the bit about targeting civilians, which your post doesn't address in the least.

I think we'd all agree the charge of the light brigade was a heroic, if stupid thing to do. I don't think we'd have the same feelings of reverence and respect for a guy who drives a bomb-laden car into a nursery school (or for a desk jockey who targets a hospital with a guided missile, with a nod to Ser C's point).

[HoreTore]

No wonder Europe is becoming Eurabia. You guys are going to keep apologizing for these folks until they exterminate the lot of you.
I hope that iron turtle necks become the fashion trend soon so that some of you "enlightened" guys have a chance.

Can't really say I've seen much of either Eurabia or the numerous hordes of naked, screaming, muslim barbarians who all conspire to take over our countries and make us all brown that the conservatives are so afraid of...

I have noticed better food though. And god knows that was needed.

[Don Corleone]

How dare you speak against the hallowed Lutefisk and Purresupe!?!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

"Can the bombing of civilian targets be justified in the defense of freedom?"

1/4 of American Muslim men believe that suicide bombings are justified!!!

These two statements are not comparable. Of course the bombing of civilian targets can sometimes be justified in the defense of freedom. But these guys arent defending freedom. How about asking how many americans favor wiping out all the arabs. That would be a closer comparison. Or would we be justified in bombing Iran. Your not going to find many americans that will back the intentional slaughter of innocents.

Thats a generalization right there. Not all followers of Islam are prone to violent actions,

Where? He said he wanted to make a poll he didnt give the results.

There are those groups within a demographic population that are prone to violence, but you will find them in any religion, save the pacifist ones.

Now were getting down to the real nitty gritty and where all this Islam -Christain comparison today falls flat on its face. What percentage of Muslims are violent vs Christians today in the name of their religion? Its not even close.

[HoreTore]

How dare you speak against the hallowed Lutefisk and Purresupe!?!

Lutefisk smells like death and agony. Simple as that. And no sane person eats that filth... The ones who do uses Akevitt to remove the taste, and I think that speaks for itself. We can't even make drinkable alcohol. And I've never heard of purresuppe, but it sounds like the rest of our food - so INCREDIBLY dull. If it hadn't been for immigration, I would have starved to death. I'll say it loud and clear, NO norwegian food tastes good, 90% of it doesn't even classify as edible.

If you ever see a restaurant with scandinavian food, run as fast as you can.

[PanzerJaeger]

Beat me to it Dave.

Some other interesting info..

In addition to young Muslims' attitudes towards homicide bombings, the study found that only 40 percent of U.S. Muslims believe that Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks. Another 28 percent said they don't believe it.

The Pew poll also found that almost half of the nation's Muslims are more likely to identify themselves as Muslims first and then Americans, with 47 percent placing religious affiliation above nationality.

Three out of four people surveyed said the decision to go to war in Iraq was wrong, and 48 percent said using force in Afghanistan was wrong. Five percent of those surveyed had a "very favorable" or "somewhat favorable" view of Al Qaeda, while 58 percent had a "very unfavorable" opinion of the terror group.

We've got a virtual 5th column living amongst us and the PC crowd are content to bury their heads in the sand. +1 Patriot Act

[FactionHeir]

Now were getting down to the real nitty gritty and where all this Islam -Christain comparison today falls flat on its face. What percentage of Muslims are violent vs Christians today in the name of their religion? Its not even close.

Maybe the better question is what triggered this difference. Maybe some recent invasions?

[Ser Clegane]

These two statements are not comparable.

I was not comparing my question to the second statement (which is incorrect) but to the original question from the poll:

Can Suicide Bombing of Civilian Targets
to Defend Islam be Justified?

I already commented in post #10 why I believe that the comparison of answers to these two question would make sense.