Pikes ! Pikes everywhere ! And not one bloke to use them.

[Kobal2fr]

I recently tried a game as the Scots (mainly to hear their speeches), and got to mess around with pikes for the first time. On the defensive, they're great, there's no denying that... But I have yet to find a way to use them on the offensive with them actually using their bloody sticks.

I tried attacking with spearwall + defensive mode : no charge, plus you get flanked like it's Christmas. And even though they start poking, they keep on advancing till they're toe-to-toe with their target and then switch. I also tried charging without defensive mode, and without both wall and def, and it's just depressing : they race in with their pikes at 45°, then just switch to swords on contact.

Now, you all know what I want. I want them to charge in (or even just walk in, that would be good 'nuff) with their pikes *horizontal*, and STOP when the pike hits the first line of the enemy unit, then poke-poke-poke without moving one inch forward. Anyone found a way to get them to do that, or something close to it ?

PS : I don't really want to delete their swords either, as it makes them too good (ie cav charging their backs get slaughtered)

[dopp]

They're great on the defensive? I bow to your superior skill with the hedgehogs of death. I cheat. I confiscate their swords to prevent misbehavior during battle.

[FactionHeir]

The only time I got them to be somewhat smart was having them get engaged by the enemy frontally in guard+pike mode and then switching off guard mode. They are useless in any other circumstance.
Also a nice mini exploit is to switch pike mode on/off while enemies are standing somewhat inside your pikes.

As dopp said, confiscating their swords in the only proper way of getting them to become useful.

[pike master]

just command this formation to advance beyond the enemy target with guard mode off.

i believe it will give you the desired effect.

there is a little more to the way the formation is used than that instruction but the rest will take your imagination and experience.

[rvg]

Yeah, getting Pikes to work correctly is still a mystery to me, doubly so since in RTW spearwall units worked flawlessly.

....mmmm....Sacred Band.....

[FactionHeir]

Meh, the standard hoplites were good enough for the purpose of pikes already :D

[Doug-Thompson]

Just command this formation to advance beyond the enemy target with guard mode off.

i believe it will give you the desired effect.

there is a little more to the way the formation is used than that instruction but the rest will take your imagination and experience.

Maybe so, mad cat, but I for one would like to hear a whole lot more.

I may be the nuttiest of the resident cavalry nuts, but I'm fascinated by pike tactics of the Medieval Swiss — and how I can't find any two accounts that give the same description of them.

I've also been frustrated by the apparent uselessness of the game's pike formations on the attack. It looks like you're not using them as a block but using several units in a column to make up a "block." What's up with that?

[pike master]

the history of the swiss fighting formations goes back to their early years when they fought in halberd only formations. they oftentimes found themselves in fights against heavy cavalry and although they would usually win of course it was their discipline since the halberds were too short to effectively neutralize the horse charge.

they knew of flemish experiments with the pike and decided to enclose their halberd formation with a box of pikes on all sides. this was known as their main shock force the middle guard. when the phalanx engaged it held its line with pikes well but when the opportunity arose as in the enemy formation began to fall apart or the pike wall was breached then the halberdiers were let loose to wreck havoc in close in fighting.

the term column referred to the overall marching formation of the swiss. vanguard contained a mixed bag of combined arms to recon, pin down, and occupy the enemy preparing it for the advance of the massive middle guard. following the middle guard came the rearward guard which could split up to support the middle guards flanks or move as a whole to one flank or another to execute a single envelopment.

as mercenaries the swiss developed all pike formations and drilled and trained in the phalanx style of warfare reckoned from classical times. these formations were sometimes described as being very narrow and deep, others that they were a box formation. i tend to believe they were very versatile and that the speed with which they approached an unprepared enemy was usually along a road as it was in a battle near milan where they trotted down a road with no music playing and smashed into a french army almost before it had time to meet them, would tend to indicate a column that would not have been able to deploy and travel down the road so quickly.

i would say they had a certian drill that once such a narrow front was engaged that they could then form the formation up in square or even use it as a wedge.

also the scots were not the only pikemen who used hedgehogs. in some battles the swiss would use a hedgehog to hold off an enemy while the other swiss formations maneuvred. many different drills and formations im sure. the system was quite versatile.

the downfall of the pikes could be most likely attributed to gunpowder but could have also have been related to specialized training and tactics to get past the pike wall. in this the mercenary swiss were vulnerable but i fear an enemy would have never been so lucky against the original swiss phalanx that incorporated halberdiers.

the swiss cantonel phalanxes as i described at the top of this post usually were comprised of three cantonels of the biggest cantons each with its own vanguard, middle guard, and rearward guard.

[Kobal2fr]

They're great on the defensive? I bow to your superior skill with the hedgehogs of death. I cheat. I confiscate their swords to prevent misbehavior during battle.

What I mean is that they perform exactly like they're supposed to : like moving stakes who can protect my archers from cav, and to block streets long enough for my cav to go around. For 150 florins apiece, I don't expect them to be wargods , but they're great at buying time

EDIT @madcat : hmm, I hadn't thought of that, and it's a bloody brilliant idea. I'll give it a try next time.

[Didz]

I recently tried a game as the Scots (mainly to hear their speeches), and got to mess around with pikes for the first time. On the defensive, they're great, there's no denying that... But I have yet to find a way to use them on the offensive with them actually using their bloody sticks.

Well according to my hero Mike Loades the reason the Scottish were so deadly with their pikes was that they had mastered the art of manouvre whilst in a shiltron formation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schiltron

Although the schiltron is often seen as a principally defensive formation, it was not the defensive use of schiltrons that proved decisive at the Battle of Bannockburn; instead, Robert the Bruce had drilled his troops in the offensive use of the pike (requiring great discipline), and he engaged the English host on unfavourable ground. This was similar to the pike charges that brought victory at the Stirling Bridge. Bruce's new tactic was a response to a crushing defeat for the Scots at Falkirk (1298), when the traditional use of the schiltron failed in the face of English archers."[1]

He actually demonstrated this with a bunch of volunteers and movie stuntmen training them to move whilst in a shiltron and then charging them repeatedly with horsemen.

He beleives that because the formations could move they were able to trap English Knights between each other and annihilate them rather than stand around statically waiting for the english to bring up archers. Whilst at the same time because the formation actually had no flanks there was nothing the English could do to break into it.

[Kobal2fr]

Yeah, I know, and the Swiss also fought like demons and charged their pikewalls, which is why we oughta be able to use pikes in an offensive manner too. Hence my OP

But you remind me of a post I did a few days ago that go no reply at all : has anyone ever tried giving pike units the schiltrom formation instead of spearwall ?

[Slaists]

So far, the only way I get them to work in the game is by confiscating their swords as suggested before. This overpowers them a bit since even rear and side cavalry charges become deadly (for the cavalry), as the rear soldiers of the pike unit just turn and fight in spearwall formation (whereas they would turn and fight with swords if available). It is similar to a moving schiltrom mentioned above though. So, I guess, not that inaccurate.

[Jambo]

Remove their swords and decrease their mass by 0.2 or 0.3. That makes them effective and yet somewhat vulnerable. They don't take out their swords but they'll also lose their formation more easily.

[anders]

this fault in the battle-game is really a bigger game-wrecker than the 2-h bug. the reintroduction of pike formations on the continent by the swiss changed the way war was conducted, decreased the importance of noble cavalry, and together with the introduction of gunpowder paved way for modern warfare.

but in the game, this doesnt happen as each and every pike unit is totally inept.. it might be ok for militia pike to not be able to function as anything more than moveabe static defense points, but the swiss and landsknechts should be offensive units in their own right, able both to do the slow poking "phalanx" advance and full charges against any other unit with good results.

[Morgomir]

how can you increase halberdiers move speed?