Effect of weapons upgrades

[Miracle]

@Foz:

That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

Also, what bonuses will you give for each class-based guild? Both weapon upgrade and exp? Exp only? Weapon upgrade only?

And don't you think +6 attack is still too much, even if other classes get to have weapons upgrades?

@Kobal:

Given the choice between +6 attack and +1-3 exp, most folks will pick +6 attack every time. Think about how much faster you will kill your enemy. Morale won't be even an issue because you're easily winning.

It's really not hard to get a SS's guild in every starting castle after ~50 turns. DFK's are comparatively powerful in 1.2 and you'll need all you can get (no point in disbanding). Heck, even the AI builds a fair number of them and gets SS's guilds with reasonable frequency. Not to mention that the SS's Master's Guild also gives +1 exp for melee cavalry as well.

Yeah I've also heard of, "if it hurts when you do that, don't do it." But most players including the AI will build SS's guilds naturally so this is pretty important to address.

[Husar]

I couldn't say that the bonus feels like a 6 point difference from my experience. I always got the feeling that my troops behaved rather similar with or without the weapons upgrade, so the +1 sounded about right to me.
I'm quite surprised now, maybe I should test this.

edit: Done and wow, never noticed such a grave difference before!
I did notice some difference in unit strength and killing speed before but it never ocurred to me that weapon upgrades could be responsible, after seeing some weapon-upgraded DFKs beat another group of DFKs easily with around 70 men left, I guess I'm converted.

[crpcarrot]

er before we compare exp upgrades with weapons upgrades wouldnt it be good to igure out the actual imapct of the upgrade first.

what i mean is if a 1 point weapon upgrade actually gives +6 attack then wouldnt an exp increase showing a 1 point increase also be giving a bigger increase than displayed? has anyone tested this out?

[Husar]

I wonder why the displayed stats are wrong anyway, it can't be that hard to show the right numbers on a scroll, I mean anyone who can program such a 3D engine should be able do do that.

[dopp]

I tried making Horse Breeder available for castles, but the building browser throws a hissy fit with missing text entries. It doesn't seem to be a typo or bug, at least, otherwise the text entries should be there.

I wonder whether gunpowder troops get their missile weapon or their melee attack upgraded when you build an alchemist lab. Does it even work properly?

[ninjahboy]

so thats why my 5 squads of armoured swordsmen (english) upgraded with both armour and weapons + all vets wsa able to hold off that 2000 strong german army at the gates on guard mode :P
(i have picks :P)

[Lusted]

Exp bonuses certainly seem to be displaying correctly judging by my testing, just weapon and armour upgrades are not displaying correctly on the unit cards.

[Tambarskjelve]

Well, just now, playing as Poland I have a citadel with master horsebreeders guild and Academy.
That SHOULD give my Polish Guard +4 exp, but they come out with only a bronze chevron.
So somethings not quite right.

[dopp]

You sure it's not the unit experience bug bothering you?

[Fußball]

@Foz:That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

I believe what Foz meant was to consider it more of a Blacksmith's guild. One which specializes in making better weapons such as maces, warhammers and of course swords. But instead we have this guild that only is achieved by building sword units.

Tschüß!
Erich

[darth_napo]

n00b question, how can I upgrade weapons for my troops in the campaign?

[Fußball]

n00b question, how can I upgrade weapons for my troops in the campaign?

By building said Swordsmiths' Guild.

Tschüß!
Erich

[darth_napo]

By building said Swordsmiths' Guild.

Tschüß!
Erich

that's the only way? I thought there are several ways to upgrade weapons in MTW, but I forget it.

[Foz]

@Foz:That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

I believe what Foz meant was to consider it more of a Blacksmith's guild. One which specializes in making better weapons such as maces, warhammers and of course swords. But instead we have this guild that only is achieved by building sword units.

Tschüß!
Erich

Quite right, Fußball. I use the heavy infantry classification for the guild points trigger because it, IMO, most clearly exhibits troops which would need higher quality professional melee weapons that would attract master blacksmiths. The game seems to designate non-heavy troops as typically militia or at least considerably less professional than their heavy counterparts, so I decided to extend that difference into the melee weapon guild. It makes sense that high quality professional armies, whatever weapons they wield, should be able to attract and benefit from the improved craftsmanship better smiths can provide. So yes, the idea was for it primarily to reflect the conditions that would attract and make use of better weaponsmiths as opposed to simply swordsmiths in particular, and so I chose to draw upon the more professional (i.e. heavy) units as a primary way to attract the guild. In fact "weaponsmiths guild" doesn't sound like a bad name at all for it, all things considered.

[dopp]

You could have a trigger similar to the cavalry trigger, only testing for infantry (spearmen are a separate category). Nice and simple, plus you won't need to worry about having 100000 triggers to include every sword unit in the game.

[Jambo]

Best thing I've found to do to prevent mass exploitation of this +6 upgrade is to make the cost of upgrading weapons in the EDU much, much more expensive. Like literally 5 times the default value. I'm loathe to remove the functionality completely since I enjoy the graphical changes to the weapons on the battlemap.

In terms of the Easterns factons one just has to even up the score a little. For example, enabling Dismounted Boyar Sons and Druchima to contribute towards Swordsmiths for Russia, Dismounted Sipahi and Naffatun (they actually have swords) for Turks, as well as Naffatun and sopmething else for the Egyptians. I actually enabled Sudanese Tribesman to be built by the Egyptians and Moors so that should help them. Also, one can allow HBGs to be built in castles and that lessens the spread of Swordsmiths Guilds considerably.

[FactionHeir]

Well increasing the cost of the upgrade wouldn't do much for newly trained units who come out with upgrades already though. Only for units you send in for retraining.

[Jambo]

I know, but retraining units effectively is easily one of the main things that differentiates the human from the AI; moving units from one city to the next to get the latest upgrades. That at least puts the dampners on that.