Dck/dfk ?

**_Tristan_** · 06-07-2007, 17:51

Whoever needs to train DCK when DFK are cheaper and have better stats ?

DCK 13/19 (no XP/no up) cost 590
DFK 13/21 (no XP/no up) cost 570

Any idea ?

**Lusted** · 06-07-2007, 17:57

Well you don't in vanilla, though the stats in vanilla are in need of serious rebalancing.

[shameless plug]

Why not try my LTC mod which does do a major balance which was worked on mostly by Palamedes.

[/shameless plug]

**FactionHeir** · 06-07-2007, 18:01

DCK are only worse if they are E DCK. Normal DCK are better than DFK.

**econ21** · 06-07-2007, 18:07

It's been pointed out in quite a few threads that DFKs are rather problematic in the vanilla game. The upgrades from them are not better, or not better enough.

But also, DFK are also arguably too dramatic an improvement over what comes before for some factions. If you are England, or HRE, getting DFKs is the biggest technological improvement in your fighting ability. The leap up from relying on spears & militia to DFK is massive.

Maybe there should be some lower grade, less armoured sword available earlier in the tech tree? A dismounted man-at-arms or something? I suspect that name's already taken, but something that is to DFK what mounted sergeants are to mailed knights. MTW had something like that distinction, although the foot knights proper were not recruitable in SP.

I have not tried Lusted's mod yet, so maybe he has covered this. But perhaps CA could consider it for kingdoms? It would be great if that expansion adds some units to the core campaign, as VI did.

**Foz** · 06-07-2007, 19:44

Originally Posted by econ21

It's been pointed out in quite a few threads that DFKs are rather problematic in the vanilla game. The upgrades from them are not better, or not better enough.

But also, DFK are also arguably too dramatic an improvement over what comes before for some factions. If you are England, or HRE, getting DFKs is the biggest technological improvement in your fighting ability. The leap up from relying on spears & militia to DFK is massive.

Maybe there should be some lower grade, less armoured sword available earlier in the tech tree? A dismounted man-at-arms or something? I suspect that name's already taken, but something that is to DFK what mounted sergeants are to mailed knights. MTW had something like that distinction, although the foot knights proper were not recruitable in SP.

I have not tried Lusted's mod yet, so maybe he has covered this. But perhaps CA could consider it for kingdoms? It would be great if that expansion adds some units to the core campaign, as VI did.

AFAIK Lusted primarily addresses it by improving the lower level units, in particular spears. Thus the leap up to DFKs is much less of one, and things are more smoothed out. It would likely be best to bump spears up some and likewise bring DFKs down a bit from vanilla levels in order to bridge the gap and differentiate DFKs from other better knights a bit more as well. I am unsure whether or not Lusted has done that, though. DFKs and other sword and shield units generally have killer animations (i.e. very fast) as well, so they will outperform their attack stat typically. So you could actually drop them to the same attack level as other lower-level units and they would still significantly outperform them. OTOH I'm not sure the moderate extra cost incurred for better knight units really warrants a much bigger difference than there already is, so it seems debatable at best.

**hoetje** · 06-07-2007, 20:10

sorry for being noob,but what is dck/dfk?

**SwordsMaster** · 06-08-2007, 20:48

Originally Posted by Lusted

Well you don't in vanilla, though the stats in vanilla are in need of serious rebalancing.

[shameless plug]

Why not try my LTC mod which does do a major balance which was worked on mostly by Palamedes.

[/shameless plug]

Elaborate, please. What kind of rebalancing are we talking about? You might get yourself a customer...

**Lusted** · 06-08-2007, 20:55

Erm, very extensive it's why i can't really elaborate as i don't think many units haven't had their stats changed in it.

It can be summed up as trying to have a more MTW style of balance as well as generally improving the all round balance of the game.

**SwordsMaster** · 06-08-2007, 20:59

Originally Posted by Lusted

Erm, very extensive it's why i can't really elaborate as i don't think many units haven't had their stats changed in it.

It can be summed up as trying to have a more MTW style of balance as well as generally improving the all round balance of the game.

hmmm.... I say. Hmm. Any graphics-maps changes? Faster or slower campaign? How's the AI coping?

You can PM me if you feel like the thread is hijacked...

**Lusted** · 06-08-2007, 21:02

Slower campaign at 1.5 years per turn instead of 2 years per turn in vanilla, 2.3 incldues new Byzantine skins but they'll be an optional add-on in 3.0 to keep the mods enhanced vanilla feel. AI generally does better in the mod and the economic mode has been tweaked so it makes thigns more difficult.