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Thread: Hayasdan

  1. #1

    Default Hayasdan

    I just started playing this mod (or any mod really), and I'm amazed at the amount of research put into the game itself. Specifically, I'm very impressed with the amount of effort put into the Hayasdan faction. The fact that the word was even used was a motivating factor for me to download and play Europa Barbarorum in the first place. So aside from thanking all of you for the incredible amounts of effort it must have taken to make this mod in the first place, I'd like to thank those who researched and developed the Hayasdan faction for bringing it to life.

    I have a few questions regarding the language used in the game though. I've tried using the search function to check for previous threads on the topic, but have found nothing so far. I'm a fluent Armenian speaker, but that is currently used Armenian and not the ancient tongue. A few of the words have me thrown for a loop, and I'll try to bring up any I find, but here's for starters:

    Ayrudz seems to be used in the game to mean "horse." The word "Ayrudz" (in the current tongue) means "lion," not "horse." The word for "horse" is Tse (again in current tongue). Has the word changed from the original?

    Arkah is used in game to refer to the King of the faction. The word Arkah is a reference to "God," not king. The word for king is Takavor. Was there a time when the Armenians called their king a "God" or maybe it was a reference to "God-King?"

    The word for "river" used in game is something I don't recognize as well, but this is an aside because I can't quite remember the word in the game, the current use is Khed.

    And lastly (for now anyway) are the troops in the game actually saying anything in Armenian when they are moved or clicked? Or is this just the pre-packaged RTW gibberish for those factions? I haven't played those factions so I don't know what they sound like. I've listened to the voices very carefully though when I click and can't make out a word of it.

    Again, thanks for the time put into this and your attention to detail, it's amazing!




    Follow :)

  2. #2
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Hello Follow, I'll try and answer your questions as best I can.

    Ayrudzi = Dzi (or alternatively Tse, depending on the transliteration) is horse, and Ayr is man. "u" ties the two together so it becomes horseman.

    I don't know about Arkah, I'm not the translator unfortunately, but if it is wrong it will need to be changed. I'll let my translator, artavazd know of your point here.

    The same with river, I'll ask him to check and give his reasons here.

    The Armenian troops are currently speaking ancient greek, this is a placeholder until a more suitable voicemod can be made for them.

    I'm glad you are enjoying the game, playing as Hayasdan. There are lots of things still wrong with it, and many new things will be avaliable in the next release.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  3. #3
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    If I may elaborate on the issue of Arkah, as in being God, I think this is more related to Orontid lineage vis-a-vis to the Achaemenids who denoted themselves as Ahūrā Mazdā, a god incarnated as man. We have little to no archaeological evidence on Armenian investitures, in particular dating to Orontid period, but I think there is reason that such a practice may have been adopted by Orontids. Back then Armenian and Iranian pantheons were very much alike, in fact the former had adopted many religious facets of the Achaemenids and may as a result have adopted the practice of religiously inspired investiture, to make kingship a matter sealed by religious authority and therefore also by divinity.

    It's not an answer to the question raised, however it may give some insight into how the previous Hayasdan staff may have reasoned.


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Āriōbarzanes of the Sūrźn-Pahlavān

  4. #4
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Persian Cataphract
    If I may elaborate on the issue of Arkah, as in being God, I think this is more related to Orontid lineage vis-a-vis to the Achaemenids who denoted themselves as Ahūrā Mazdā, a god incarnated as man. We have little to no archaeological evidence on Armenian investitures, in particular dating to Orontid period, but I think there is reason that such a practice may have been adopted by Orontids. Back then Armenian and Iranian pantheons were very much alike, in fact the former had adopted many religious facets of the Achaemenids and may as a result have adopted the practice of religiously inspired investiture, to make kingship a matter sealed by religious authority and therefore also by divinity.

    It's not an answer to the question raised, however it may give some insight into how the previous Hayasdan staff may have reasoned.
    Certainly Tigran II took on the mantle of Theos from the Seleucid Kings after he inherited the cities of Syria. We also know that the brother of Orontes IV was the high priest of the Armenian Pantheon, so there is certainly a close connection between the two. From the inscriptions of the Urartean Kings, there is no indication that they were themselves considered as a God incarnate, thus Menua, for example, says that he speaks for the Dread God Khaldi, which does not suggest that the position of King was not divine in the same sense as the Egyptian Pharaohs (though it would not have been impossible).

    Given that the first Orontid was of a royal Bactrian line and married into the Achaemenid family, it is not beyond comprehension that they picked up the practice of proclaiming themselves King, but this would have only been after the defeat of Darius, which might make it a bit suspect.

    Foot
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    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  5. #5
    Marzbān-ī Jundīshāpūr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    You have a point of course, the practice could at earliest have been adopted quite late, well into the decay of the Achaemenids, though the eunuch Bagoas upset the entire balance of Achaemenid royalty by making a common champion warrior (The one who was to become Darius III Codomannus) with no royal lineage a Shāhanshāh. From there we may see the first seed into other petty kingdoms beginning to title themselves more peculiarly.

    The practice was also adopted by the Seleucids and eventually also the Parthians, through the title of "Epiphanes", or ΕΠΙΦΑΝΟΥΣ ΦΙΛΕΛΛΗΝΟΣ, which means "God manifest". "Arsaces" too sort of became an epithet but more designative to the royal clan.


    "Fortunate is every man who in purity and truth recognizes valiance and prevents it from becoming bravado" - Āriōbarzanes of the Sūrźn-Pahlavān

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Foot
    Hello Follow, I'll try and answer your questions as best I can.

    Ayrudzi = Dzi (or alternatively Tse, depending on the transliteration) is horse, and Ayr is man. "u" ties the two together so it becomes horseman.
    That does answer some questions. It's difficult to read the Armenian language using our alphabet, and I usually have to try to sound the words out a few times before I get anything out of it. The suffix "i" (pronounced the same as the e in Dzi, long ee) also means something like "of the" i.e. the word "Dzerk" means hand while "Dzerki" means "of the hand" (my mother uses the phrase "Dzerki Telephone" when describing my cell phone). The "u" as used here is a conjunction (specifically "and"), but generally doesn't tie two words together as one i.e. the word "Yes" means me, and "Dun" means you but does not become "Yesudun" but "Yes u Dun." That's why when I read the word I didn't see "Ayr u Dzi" being man and horse, but "Ayrudzi" being of the lion. There are some other parallels using the entire "Dzi" suffix as denoting where a person is from i.e. "Hayasdandzi" meaning from Armenia. But that gets into another line of thought not terribly relevant to the current question.

    I haven't ever seen the word "Ayr" referring to man, but there are many dialects of the language and the one I grew up with happens to be so intermingled with Bulgarian, Turkish, and Arabic that I can hardly tell some of the words apart. But I do notice the use of "Mart" (plural "Martik") being used, which is the word(s) I understand as "Man."

    ETA: Also, thanks for the clarification on what the troops are saying. Now my wife can stop looking at me strangely when I turn the speakers way up loud and lean in while continually moving some hapless unit to and fro trying to make out what they're saying. ;)




    Follow :)
    Last edited by Follow; 06-15-2007 at 16:42.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    If you ever have heard haykakan hayeren dzi means horse. And Arkah means king of kings. Tagavor was used for the kings of ciliia and meany of the words that they are using are old Hayeren so if Ayr means man and "u" is and, dzi is horse. ayrudzi means man and horse or man on horse. If yo transled it litarl than you get this.
    "I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

    William Saroyan, 1935.


    High kings of the Mountains: A Hayasdan AAR

  8. #8

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by KtotheC
    If you ever have heard haykakan hayeren dzi means horse. And Arkah means king of kings. Tagavor was used for the kings of ciliia and meany of the words that they are using are old Hayeren so if Ayr means man and "u" is and, dzi is horse. ayrudzi means man and horse or man on horse. If yo transled it litarl than you get this.
    You're probably right about "Arkah" and considering the issue, it might be that the word came to mean "God" in the post Armenian Christianity era, where they would have called Jesus the "King of kings."

    I'm familiar enough with any of the Armenian dialects to understand them conversationally. If I'm unclear on a word, context will act as a guide to clarify it, but context is difficult in an environment like a game where only the word is present to figure out the definition. Hence being unclear on "Ayr." The ancient Armenian tongue is still in some use, and I can't understand a word of it because of how much the words have evolved. But when I was young, the priests used the old tongue to deliver their sermons and I'm sure many still do use it. So when I was understanding the words in the game, I figured the modern language was being used, or at the very least a hybrid of the two.




    Follow :)

  9. #9

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Sorry don't know much about acient Armenian but I think the language that they use in church serveses is not Classical Armenian but medieval Hayeren about the time of the Bagratuni kings of Ani. If I'm wrong please correct me don't know much about the history of the armenian languege



    Karo
    "I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

    William Saroyan, 1935.


    High kings of the Mountains: A Hayasdan AAR

  10. #10
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Karo
    Sorry don't know much about acient Armenian but I think the language that they use in church serveses is not Classical Armenian but medieval Hayeren about the time of the Bagratuni kings of Ani. If I'm wrong please correct me don't know much about the history of the armenian languege



    Karo
    Yes, it will be Church Armenian, though of course related to Classical Armenian. However, since the Armenian language didn't have an alphabet until the 5th century we have no idea what the Armenian language would have sounded like back then, and no doubt there would have been a lot of changes between what it was in classical times. Armenia was under the influence not only of Persian and Greek. I imagine modern Armenian and church armenian is heavily influenced by the greek language (the alphabet is based on the greek one after all).

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  11. #11

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    But I have a question what was the official language around those time and what language did the people of the kingdom speak. I'll try to find out some more if I have I'll post it here


    Karo
    "I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

    William Saroyan, 1935.


    High kings of the Mountains: A Hayasdan AAR

  12. #12
    EBII Mod Leader Member Foot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by Karo
    But I have a question what was the official language around those time and what language did the people of the kingdom speak. I'll try to find out some more if I have I'll post it here


    Karo
    By the time of Artashes, Armenian was the language of Hayasdan. The Kings spoke both Persian (Old, then Middle) and Greek, after Alexander. For writing Persian was written in Aramaic and then later on Greek was used.

    Before Artashes, many languages were prevalent in the Armenian Highlands, mostly non indo-european languages, of which Georgian is the only existing one now.

    Foot
    EBII Mod Leader
    Hayasdan Faction Co-ordinator


  13. #13

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    arkah means king. Astvadz is God. Arkah is an indo-european word. The Greeks used Archeos also in english gthe word archeic or archiology is tied in with the word arkah. foot modern armenian or classic armenian isnt influenced by greek. The common indo-european terms are there, but i think that is just common in both languages. For example in english we say door. In armenian its dur(or tur in western armenian) or du in german which means you its the same exact word in armenian ( in western armenian its tu)

  14. #14

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Artavadz do you know if the language used in the armenian church is classical or bagratuni or cilician Armenian?


    Karo
    "I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race, this small tribe of unimportant people, whose history is ended, whose wars have been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose prayers are no longer answered.... For when two of them meet anywhere in the world, see if they will not create a new Armenia!

    William Saroyan, 1935.


    High kings of the Mountains: A Hayasdan AAR

  15. #15

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    Quote Originally Posted by artavazd
    arkah means king. Astvadz is God. Arkah is an indo-european word. The Greeks used Archeos also in english gthe word archeic or archiology is tied in with the word arkah. foot modern armenian or classic armenian isnt influenced by greek. The common indo-european terms are there, but i think that is just common in both languages. For example in english we say door. In armenian its dur(or tur in western armenian) or du in german which means you its the same exact word in armenian ( in western armenian its tu)
    Yes, Astvadz is the usual noun used for "God" but the word "Arkahutoun" generally holds root in godliness in today's use. I suppose "Astvadzutoun" would work just as well, and I'm pretty sure I've heard that use of it, but I was unaware that the word "Arkah" had its roots in the word King rather than any kind of deity.

    But as above, I imagine the deity portion came in later (Christian era), after it meant something similar to Emperor.




    Follow :)

  16. #16

    Default Re: Hayasdan

    well the "church language" dates back to the fourth century AD. When armenia became a christian state the language of the day was what we know as the "church language" so it predates Bagratuni and Cilicia. (modern western armenian began in Cilicia

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