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Thread: Stopping cavalry charges

  1. #1
    Lord of Underpants Member Seabourch's Avatar
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    Default Stopping cavalry charges

    I know your spear units are supposed to be stationary but I still take losses from the cavalry when they charge. So how do u stop them without losing an insane amount of men?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Skrimishing archers are the best at stopping my formed charges.

  3. #3
    Member Member Zarky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Spearwall, and skirmish archers.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Stakes if you have a unit that can lay them,

  5. #5
    Member Member crpcarrot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    spearmen (not militia) in deep formataion at least 6 men deep set on hold formation and not moving and facing the cavalry charge head on. cavalry will just die even mongol bodyguards.

    note: with mongol BG make sure u have a high star general nearby or your men will rout. this has nothing to do with the charge however rather its the effect of the Mongols high dread.
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  6. #6
    Master Guar Herder Member Guru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Furious Mental
    Stakes if you have a unit that can lay them,
    ...Which basically means any English longbowmen, Lithuanian archers and Janissary archers. So, the English, Polish and the Turks get this advantage. If none of these are available I would use a solid spear unit like saracen militia, spearmen or armored sarges. If none of these are available I'd use my own heavy cavalry to intercept them. Well, spear militias are cheap and easy to train too. Or sacrifice a unit of peasants in front of your lines... Bwuahahahah!

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  7. #7
    Member Member Zarky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Take up peasant units just to sacrifice them and lose slots for DFKs and such...
    Just use the expensive and solid spears with some general close :D
    Homo Sapiens non Urinat in Ventum - the wise man does not piss against the wind.

  8. #8
    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Shoot them. The impact of a crossbow volley right into the front of the cav unit as they are about to hit your spearwall stops them almost dead in their tracks.
    Anything wrong ? Blame it on me. I'm the French.

  9. #9
    Relentless Bughunter Senior Member FactionHeir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    FC longbows also have stakes and so do welsh longbows.

    Any unit running away from the cav stops the charge rather well.
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  10. #10
    Die Frenchy! Member Joshwa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Stakes are great. I gave the ability to Byzantine Guard Archers and added some cost to them, because they Byzantines have no anti cavalry measures whatsoever, and i heard somewhere on these forums that the Byzantines were rather fond of digging pits, and throwing caltrops down etc..

    Anyway, little did i know that they skewer your own cavalry as well if you order them to march fast through them! I had some elite vardariotai running laterally through them and all but five died!

  11. #11
    Master Guar Herder Member Guru's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Joshwa
    Anyway, little did i know that they skewer your own cavalry as well if you order them to march fast through them! I had some elite vardariotai running laterally through them and all but five died!
    Ahahah! I remember when I played as the Polish... I sent my general to drive away the enemy archers and then ordered him to retreat back behind my lines. I was ordering my missile cavalry troops when I saw a message sliding down the left side of the screen. The message with the sword. "Good", I thought, "the enemy general is dead?"... Well, actually it was a "faction leader dies" message. My king had ran into the stakes my Lithuanian archers had deployed... I was kinda shocked. Then I saw the rest of the bodyguards routing! Oh god.

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  12. #12
    Could be your God Member Abokasee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Charging cavalry with your own charging cavalry from behind is my personal faviourte, also, 2 units of spear men are good, one for flanking, the other for getting charged
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  13. #13
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    A spear armed unit getting hit by a properly formed cavalry charge is going to take an unrealistically high number of casualties. Simply because the game does not take account of the horses natural reluctance to impale itself on a spear point or model the mutually assured destruction which would result when this happens.

    The only way to avoid this is to do as suggested above and take some action which will disrupt the cavalry prior to contact so that it does not manage to make a properly formed charge.

    Playing with larger units helps to some degree as the spear unit is deeper and therefore can absorb more of the impact. Also because huge units are wider you do not get the added problem of having cavalry overlapping both flanks and gaining a secondary advantage in melee.

    Given that you can't always prevent a cavalry unit delivering a formed charge the next most important thing is not to let them do it twice. Typically, what the AI, and probably an MP player, will want to do is deliver a formed charge and then disengage, reform and repeat the process. Don't let them disengage, order your spearmen to attack them and keep the pressure up for as long as possible. If you can bring other units round to box them in and keep them in close contact. Cavalry can't defend themselves very well in close contact particularly from infantry to their front and rear so once they have stopped moving they are pretty much dead meat.
    Last edited by Didz; 06-20-2007 at 19:39.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Ive found that the absolutely best way is to have the unit getting charged run *away* from the charging cavalry unit, if you do it early enough the charge will "end"(rather, the horses will stop moving for some stupid reason) before they actually get to the unit getting charged and you can then click to attack them to tie them up without taking much(if any at all) losses.

    Personally i find it a game flaw since i believe it should switch over to "pursuing" instead of stopping completely, but apparently it doesnt ~~

  15. #15
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Best way to stop a cavalry charge is to hurl peasants at them until the cavalry have to charge uphill to get at your men.
    And, of course, horses usually have more trouble than men getting traction on a massive pile of dead people slick with blood and assorted internal organs.
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  16. #16
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsn
    Ive found that the absolutely best way is to have the unit getting charged run *away* from the charging cavalry unit, if you do it early enough the charge will "end"(rather, the horses will stop moving for some stupid reason) before they actually get to the unit getting charged and you can then click to attack them to tie them up without taking much(if any at all) losses.

    Personally i find it a game flaw since i believe it should switch over to "pursuing" instead of stopping completely, but apparently it doesnt ~~
    Its called evasion, and its a more or less standard wargaming rule that results in a cavalry charge effectively hitting thin air.

    The obvious counter is to have the cavalry pursue as soon as the charge is over however, from past experience this usually results in the spearmen turning at bay and giving the cavalry a bloody nose.

    On the wargame table the solution to this was to commence the charge from so close to the target that they were unable to evade, but that requires careful control and risks heavy missile casualties.
    Didz
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  17. #17
    Member Member Fadly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    when i play, i usually send some of my ranged cavalries around the enemy and gather at their rear. then i'll used the missile cavalry to spray the general unit, while at the same time, my foot archers deal with the enemy front line. if your missile cavs ran out of ammo and the general still alive, there'll be few of his bodyguard left. so charge the general unit with your missile cav. the nearby unit will come to general's aid but usually i manage to kill the general before my missile cavs took to much damage. while this is happening, use the rest of the units for full frontal assault, will luck, the frontal assault will take the attention of the rest of the enemy forces and they'll ignore their stricken general. i play as a turks fighting the byzantine, and i manage to score 4 heroic victories in just 14 turns and in two of them, i got outnumbered by the byzantine. this is contrary to what many believe (muslims army must outnumbered their opponents and took a massive casualties in order to win). you can't use lighter muslim armies to fight head on battle like the heavier european units. use them in sophisticated maneuver warfare. i use my pause button very often when i play the muslims factions, since i need to coordinate several different units scattered around the whole battlefield.

    as it is, try to keep your general out of harm's way as much as possible. do not use the general unit for combat unless you have no other choice. the general's stars are more useful then their swords and lances. keep em close to combat but don't mix up.
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  18. #18
    Member Member Fadly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Fadly
    when i play, i usually send some of my ranged cavalries around the enemy and gather at their rear. then i'll used the missile cavalry to spray the general unit, while at the same time, my foot archers deal with the enemy front line. if your missile cavs ran out of ammo and the general still alive, there'll be few of his bodyguard left. so charge the general unit with your missile cav. the nearby unit will come to general's aid but usually i manage to kill the general before my missile cavs took to much damage. while this is happening, use the rest of the units for full frontal assault, will luck, the frontal assault will take the attention of the rest of the enemy forces and they'll ignore their stricken general. i play as a turks fighting the byzantine, and i manage to score 4 heroic victories in just 14 turns and in two of them, i got outnumbered by the byzantine. this is contrary to what many believe (muslims army must outnumbered their opponents and took a massive casualties in order to win). you can't use lighter muslim armies to fight head on battle like the heavier european units. use them in sophisticated maneuver warfare. i use my pause button very often when i play the muslims factions, since i need to coordinate several different units scattered around the whole battlefield.

    as it is, try to keep your general out of harm's way as much as possible. do not use the general unit for combat unless you have no other choice. the general's stars are more useful then their swords and lances. keep em close to combat but don't mix up.
    wrong thread, sorry
    Emperor Heraclius wrote the following letter to Khalid Al-Walid...

    I have come to know what you have done to my army. You have killed my son-in-law and captured my daughter. You have won and got away safely. I now ask you for my daughter. Either return her to me on payment of ransom or give her to me as a gift, for honour is a strong element in your character'.


    To which Khalid replied....


    Take her as a gift, there shall be no ransom.

  19. #19
    Village special needs person Member Kobal2fr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz
    Its called evasion, and its a more or less standard wargaming rule that results in a cavalry charge effectively hitting thin air.

    The obvious counter is to have the cavalry pursue as soon as the charge is over however, from past experience this usually results in the spearmen turning at bay and giving the cavalry a bloody nose.

    On the wargame table the solution to this was to commence the charge from so close to the target that they were unable to evade, but that requires careful control and risks heavy missile casualties.
    But isn't evasion usually done to the sides, rather than dead ahead ? As in "moving out of the way of the huge scary guys on huge scary mad horses", not trying to outrun them ? Mind you, it's been a looong while since my DBM days...
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  20. #20
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
    But isn't evasion usually done to the sides, rather than dead ahead ?
    Nope! not on wargame tables anyway.

    Quote from Charge or How to Play Wargames by Peter Lawford, Chapter 6 Charges and Melees (page 67). The Charge Rule 4.
    It may happen that a charge has been ordered from too far away for the defending troops to be 'pinned', and that these troops have orders to move. If a projected move, when completed, takes these troops beyond the maximum movement distance of the attackers, the move must be carried out, and there will be no melee. If on the other hand, after the move has been carried out the attackers can still reach their prey, the defenders carry out half of their move only, and then must stand and fight.
    Quote from Rules for the American Civil War 1863 published by the British Model Soldier Society. Section 11. Move Penalties Rule A.
    Cavalry and Infantry may charge provided that the movement is intended to bring them into contact with enemy troops during the bound in which they charge. If it becomes obvious that contact is not going to be made, a normal move must be taken.

    The wargames Research Group Rules for 1750-1850 provide a slightly different slant to this rule in that they force infantry being charged from more than half a charge move distance away to either form square, or retreat into cover. This overides any other orders the infantry may have had prior to the cavalry threat being spotted and is intended to reflect the standard practice of the period. Infantry caught in the open by cavalry and unable to form square because the cavalry are within half their charge move distance are more or less certain to be routed and the charge becomes a pursuit. The only way the infantry could avoid this fate is if they inflicted at least 20% casualties on the charging cavalry effectively forcing them to baulk and abort their charge.
    Last edited by Didz; 06-21-2007 at 14:27.
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  21. #21
    Lord of Underpants Member Seabourch's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Thanks for the advice

  22. #22
    Corrupter of Souls Member John_Longarrow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    I've found forming squares to work well. This is especially true when your missile troops are being charged. It reduces the number of casualties they take from the charge and holds up the cavalry, hopefully long enough for you to get something over to kill it. Preferably a bunch of burly guys with long pointy sticks.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Didz
    Nope! not on wargame tables anyway.

    Quote from Charge or How to Play Wargames by Peter Lawford, Chapter 6 Charges and Melees (page 67). The Charge Rule 4.

    Quote from Rules for the American Civil War 1863 published by the British Model Soldier Society. Section 11. Move Penalties Rule A.

    The wargames Research Group Rules for 1750-1850 provide a slightly different slant to this rule in that they force infantry being charged from more than half a charge move distance away to either form square, or retreat into cover. This overides any other orders the infantry may have had prior to the cavalry threat being spotted and is intended to reflect the standard practice of the period. Infantry caught in the open by cavalry and unable to form square because the cavalry are within half their charge move distance are more or less certain to be routed and the charge becomes a pursuit. The only way the infantry could avoid this fate is if they inflicted at least 20% casualties on the charging cavalry effectively forcing them to baulk and abort their charge.
    I realize that if you run out of "max charge range" it would realistically mean that your charge becomes disorganised and ineffective, but its not really the case in the game. The infantry getting charged doesnt have to move more than a few meters. As long as theyre all in motion away from the cavalry the cavalry just stops dead in their tracks for seemingly no reason at all.

    While i dont think that the "charge" should still complete and do that wrecking ball thing we all love at least i think they should automatically switch to pursuit instead of just stopping and looking stupid.

  24. #24
    Member Member WhiskeyGhost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsn
    I realize that if you run out of "max charge range" it would realistically mean that your charge becomes disorganised and ineffective, but its not really the case in the game. The infantry getting charged doesnt have to move more than a few meters. As long as theyre all in motion away from the cavalry the cavalry just stops dead in their tracks for seemingly no reason at all.

    While i dont think that the "charge" should still complete and do that wrecking ball thing we all love at least i think they should automatically switch to pursuit instead of just stopping and looking stupid.
    I concur, they need to continue moving, rather then stopping the charge to 'adjust' for the situation. Same thing ticks me off when archers do it too, and my semi-charge hits 1 retreating man, then goes to melee mode and proceeds to get rushed by all the spears that can be thrown at them


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    Member Member Tyrac's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    You cannot get a charge on a unit that is "moving"

    All you need to do is insure that the target of the charge is moving in any direction away from the charging cav and even most of the time TOWARDS it and they will avoid the worst of the impact.

    Personally I try to get my spears set and ready to take the charge because i feel this is more "fair" to the AI and realistic.

    However when I have tried it, charging or running my spears dead on into the approaching cav has killed the charge 95% of the time.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyGhost
    I concur, they need to continue moving, rather then stopping the charge to 'adjust' for the situation. Same thing ticks me off when archers do it too, and my semi-charge hits 1 retreating man, then goes to melee mode and proceeds to get rushed by all the spears that can be thrown at them
    Same. I don't really see how moving a little distance back would prevent the brunt of the charge. The charge still has momentum going forward in your direction. If they sidestep, yeah, but that's not what is happening.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    When engaging armies that have heavy cavalry in them I usually deploy my Heavy troops in deeper formations (at least 6). This allows them to withstand a charge better than if they were in 3-4.

    Plus, use missile weapons to take down as many horseys as possible or whatever you can do to disrupt the charge.

  28. #28
    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    You dont stop cavalry charges, all you can do is prevent them from occuring in the first place which is why I always engage my cav by charging into theirs so they cant charge me
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

  29. #29
    Member Member Didz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    Quote Originally Posted by Alsn
    I realize that if you run out of "max charge range" it would realistically mean that your charge becomes disorganised and ineffective, but its not really the case in the game.
    I'm not sure that the evade rule was intended to model that exactly, the idea on the wargame table was that in practice cavalry rarely galloped anywhere and when performing a charge would only spurs their horses when within a just few paces of their target.

    So, if as they were approaching the target it suddenly began to move away the cavalry would merely stop, or continue to advance slowly until they were close enough the charge again.

    I get the impression that CA have tried to simulate this by having cavalry charges abort if the target moves. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the real time engine and player intervention this usually catches the cavalry already at full gallop and so you get a strange sort of 'charge cancellation' event occur.

    Worse still if you were trying to follow historical precedent, advancing your cavalry at the walk, and letting them decide for themselves when to charge, then what often happens is that they keep on walking straight into the target. Which is another complaint I've seen on these boards.

    Part of the problem is the lack of a 'pin' routine, which would force the target to remain static and face the oncoming threat. Most wargame rules have this feature and its vital for simulating the effect of cavalry but there is nothing like that in TW.
    Didz
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  30. #30
    Member Member WhiskeyGhost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stopping cavalry charges

    The oddest part about it, is if it were say a pikeman unit with spearwall on, that wouldn't even slow a charge down (you would think this would be the situation where they would break down the charge and gallop to fight if they were forced to do so by orders) but it seems to be the exact opposite due to this whole moving unit thing


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