Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

  1. #1

    Default Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    These are based on documentaries from the History Channel, Wikipedia, and the book Roman Warfare (by Adrian Goldsoworthy).

    Camillan/Polybian Period:
    *15 units+General:
    *4 Skirmishers (in Camillan Period 2 Leves, and either 2 Roarii or 1 Roarii and 1 Ascenci)
    *4 Hastati
    *4 Principes
    *2 Triarii
    *1 Equites Romanii

    This is the most historically accurate Legion, based on the 4500 troops Legions of the Late Camillan/Polybian Period. Each of these Legions would include 300 Cavalry, 600 Triarii, 1200 Skirmishers, 1200 Hastati, and 1200 Principes

    Most of the Allies fought in much the same manner as the Romans, using the same types of troops and formations. To show Allies appropriately it would be best to substitue the Hastati for Hastati Samnitici, the Triarii for Heavy Samnite Infantry, the Skirmishers for Lucanian Light Infantry, and the Equites Romanii for Equites Extraordinarii.

    Marian (The numbers here are quite wonky from EB limitations for numbers):
    *13 units+General:
    *2 Units of Cohors Evocata, to represent the First Cohort, which had double the size of a regular cohort and was composed of veterans who had seen a minimum of 16 or 20 years of action.
    *9 units of Cohors Reformata, to represent the other nine Cohorts of the Legion.
    *2 Units of Cavalry Auxilia (the Roman one), to represent the cavalry units of the Roman Legion.


    These are based on the 6000 soldier number Legion put forth by Goldsworthy. Of these six hundred were Cavalry, divided into two units of 300 (Each subdivided into units of 30). Of the remaining units nine were Legionnary Cohorst of 480 soldiers, and the elite First Cohort of 960 soldiers. To represent Auxiliaries you may use Antesignai (who could represent light infantry auxiliary units), along with Skirmishers from the Region (mercenaries) such as thraikoi Peltastai, etc.

    The only diference with the Augustan Legions is:
    *Cavalry must be Auxiliary Cavalry from the nearest Roman Province (Gallic if in Gaul or Britain, Iberian if in Spain, etc.).
    *Skirmishers should be regionals from the nearest Roman Province.
    *Auxiliaries can be represented with either the Vanilla Auxiliaries, or regionals recruited from the nearest Roman Province.

  2. #2
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    9,029

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Those Legions, especially the Camillan ones, are not as accurate as one would think.

    Those are not really that accurate, even for a ten unit Legion.

    The proportion of Skirmishers to infantry is extremely out of whack, as there should be as many skirmishers as hastati/principes, not as much as there are infantry.
    The allies also should not be within the Legion itself, but aside, as another unit of about the same size.

    For a ten unit Legion the best would probably be:

    2 Hastati
    3 Principes
    1 Triarii
    2 Skirmishers
    1 Equites Romanii
    1 General

    For allies follow the formula I mentioned.

    What I meant was that this was the most historically accurate Legion one could make based on those three sources.

  4. #4
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Quote Originally Posted by gran_guitarra

    The proportion of Skirmishers to infantry is extremely out of whack, as there should be as many skirmishers as hastati/principes, not as much as there are infantry.

    The allies also should not be within the Legion itself, but aside, as another unit of about the same size.

    What I meant was that this was the most historically accurate Legion one could make based on those three sources.
    The hastati/principes ARE the infantry, unless I've misunderstood you.

    The alae of socii would indeed be 'within' the legion,deployed in maniples on the wings of the Roman body.

    Its very hard to use RTW units to reconstruct a historical legion, but I think we've always gone with 1 unit of each type comprising 1 praetorian legion and 2 units of each type a consular legion.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  5. #5

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Yes, you misunderstood. Sorry, that really wasn't very clear.

    Anyway,

    What I meant was that there should only be as many skirmishers as hastati OR principes. Therefore, if there are 3 hastati there should be three principes and three skirmishers.

    And the allies were never part of the Legion itself. The clearest example was the consular Legions, which were two Legions in one. The two Roman Legions would be deployed in the center of the formation, whereas the allies would be deployed in two bodies of roughly equivalent size to the Legions themselves on the wings.


    Actually reconstructing the Legions themselves is not so hard, but reconstructing the allied formations can be a bad time for you, since recruitable allies are so had to find in the game.

  6. #6
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Well no, the socii are not techincally part of the levy (legion). But Italic socii are deployed with and attatched to the legion itself, be it a Praetorian or Consular legion. The Italic allies fought in much the same manner as the Roman citizen soldiers as well, especially in our period, so you can represent them with additional hastati and principes or triarii if you so choose.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  7. #7

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Well that's what I meant to represent, a Legion's strength and composition on paper. In reality very few Legions actually had those numbers exactly like that, especially with Auxiliaries and Allied infantry.

    However, pure Legions are basically that, though if you want to suplement their strength that is quite all right, and in fact something I do myself if the enemy has a butload more troops than I do even with a "full" Legion.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    9,651

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    I've gone back to EB and am using the starting EB Roman stacks as pre-Camillan legions (ie one of each basic Roman unit type), but add one principes and one hastati to bulk them out. That comes to a half stack and has roughly historical proportions (2H:2P:1T). It fights in quite a "Roman way" - relying on heavy infantry with limited light infantry (one slinger, one levee). It has perhaps too much cavalry (general + equites) but equites casualties are so high, it tends not to be overbalancing in practice.

    For Italian allies, I follow Qwerty's recommendation to assume the Roman units also represent them. In RTR, I'd use the Italian allied units, but in EB, comparable units (samnites, extraordinarii etc) seem better than the Romans and don't seem to fit as neatly into my concept of a legion.

    I might double the legion up for a Consular army. The half stack legion gets battered quite easily - e.g. just taking the rebel settlement north of Arretium (2 gestatae. ) I am not sure what to do about mercs yet; I am trying to avoid them but am sure that will weaken as casualties mount far afield.

    One thing I've noticed in EB, is that generals tend to get conditioned to either be good fighters or good governors quickly. I'd like to see something like Marcus Camillus's Roman leadership traits (a mini-mod for RTR), that allow generals to switch between military and civic careers, and also makes rank related to age (experience).

  9. #9

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    for Polibian and onwards legions, i would recommend Candilarius' guide to a 'right' consular armies compositions.
    along with Quitus' guide on becming a true Roman.

  10. #10
    Member Member CNM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Stockholm
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Hi Sarkis
    I still quite new here, and haven't learned to find my way around. Would it be possible for you to add a link to the 2 guides you mention?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkiss
    for Polibian and onwards legions, i would recommend Candilarius' guide to a 'right' consular armies compositions.
    along with Quitus' guide on becming a true Roman.

  11. #11
    Just your average Senior Member Warmaster Horus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Besancon, France: a stepping stone to greatness. I hope.
    Posts
    2,940

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Unless I'm much mistaken, aren't those guides for Rome Total Realism?
    The Throne Room: "Less a forum, more a way of life." Econ21
    Don't hesitate to visit the Mead Hall! A little more reading, a little less shouting, please.
    Join the latest greatest installement of mafia games: Capo di Tutti Capi!
    Check out the Gahzette!
    By the by, are you interested in helping out the Gahzette? Think you could be a writer, reporting on the TW or Org community? Then check the Gahzette Thread or drop me a PM!


    Back.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Quote Originally Posted by Warmaster Horus
    Unless I'm much mistaken, aren't those guides for Rome Total Realism?

    If It ain't copyrighted......


    Join the Army: A Pontic AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=96984
    ...uh coptic mother****er:A Makuria Comedy AAR
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...93#post1814493

  13. #13
    Just your average Senior Member Warmaster Horus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Besancon, France: a stepping stone to greatness. I hope.
    Posts
    2,940

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Except that RTR and EB are different mods...
    The Throne Room: "Less a forum, more a way of life." Econ21
    Don't hesitate to visit the Mead Hall! A little more reading, a little less shouting, please.
    Join the latest greatest installement of mafia games: Capo di Tutti Capi!
    Check out the Gahzette!
    By the by, are you interested in helping out the Gahzette? Think you could be a writer, reporting on the TW or Org community? Then check the Gahzette Thread or drop me a PM!


    Back.

  14. #14
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Somewhere inside the Military-Industrial Complex
    Posts
    3,607

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    Its still a good guidebook. Contains some guidelines for historical expansion too, and house rules. Thumbs up from my end.


    "urbani, seruate uxores: moechum caluom adducimus. / aurum in Gallia effutuisti, hic sumpsisti mutuum." --Suetonius, Life of Caesar

  15. #15

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods

    The Ultimate Guide to Playing RTR Historically as the Romans by Candelarius was designed for RTR but it still has very important information. expansions, house rules, armies (with pictures) etc. it was based on Quintus's guide but expanded. look it up and ignore the parts about RTR.

  16. #16
    Member Member CNM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Stockholm
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Historically Accurate Legions for all time Periods


Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO