Even Jews Are Axeing Circumcision

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Seems to me cutting something off is removing that part from the eqasion completely, if less to work with means less stymulisation.

Yeah, you get my drift.

Like I said, I can't imagine my little man being in my underwear and being comfortable without my foreskin to protect him. If that doesn't bother guys without foreskins I'm inclined to think the snip has a negative impact.

Although, that might translate into a positive impact on your lovemaking.

[Gregoshi]

There is no comparable frame of reference between the cut and uncut, at least for us Joes on the street. So short of us asking each other "how can you live like that?", there's naught we can do but wonder or read medical journals.

Heaven forbid this ever become an issue for presidential politics.

[Goofball]

I believe anyone who feels like cutting in their penis should be allowed to do so.

However, doing it on someone who is newly born and doesnt have a say is in my view considered to be torture and should be prosecuted.

Really?

There are those among us (myself included) who believe that the medical and social benefits of circumcision are real and outweight any downside. For that reason, I had my son circumcised after he was born. I am not Jewish, so religion had nothing to do with my decision.

I was present during the whole process and quite frankly, my son seemed to go through less discomfort during the circumcision than he did when undergoing another medical process that his criminal father subjected him to against his will: vaccinations.

Still think I should be prosecuted?

i have a friend whos parents are jewish... he however doesnt really fall for teh godstuff, and he kind of hate them for having cut his penis to shreds.

Mainly because the girls go "wtf is that" when they see it...

Hmmm. Anecdotal, I know, but most women I know find uncircumcised penises to be unsightly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Really?

There are those among us (myself included) who believe that the medical and social benefits of circumcision are real and outweight any downside. For that reason, I had my son circumcised after he was born. I am not Jewish, so religion had nothing to do with my decision.

Why didn't you wait until he was old enough to decide for himself? As to social benefits I really see none, it's like getting a piercing in that respect.

I was present during the whole process and quite frankly, my son seemed to go through less discomfort during the circumcision than he did when undergoing another medical process that his criminal father subjected him to against his will: vaccinations.

Well you do get an anacetic during, and anyway, I'm betting he was a lot younger and basically unable to protest when chopped.

Still think I should be prosecuted?

No, I just think you're wrong.

Hmmm. Anecdotal, I know, but most women I know find uncircumcised penises to be unsightly.

Funny, isn't it? Over here I think it's generally considered to be mutilation now, so women find it a bit sad. Opinion does seem to vary quite a bit though.

[Lemur]

There are those among us (myself included) who believe that the medical and social benefits of circumcision are real and outweight any downside. For that reason, I had my son circumcised after he was born.

You know your feelings on the matter. Excellent. But shouldn't the decision have been left up to your boy? If he wants to snip, he can do so when he's older. Remember, you can always take away, but you can never give back.

[Strike For The South]

Guys it really doesnt matter. Its not like any of us get laid anyway

[Kadagar_AV]

goofball, so you think that you, as his father, has the right to decide over your sons body?

I have absolutely nothing against people who themselves decide they want soemthing done, piercings, circumcisionor, whatever.... What I do object against is forcing your belief/fashion taste/ whatever on someone who cant decide themselves.

IF it's such a cool thing, why dont you let him decide for himself when he is old enough to do so?

As mentioned, you can take but never give back. What if your son in X years regrets having it done? I'm not saying he will be, but what if? Are you gonna give it back?

[Whacker]

You know your feelings on the matter. Excellent. But shouldn't the decision have been left up to your boy? If he wants to snip, he can do so when he's older. Remember, you can always take away, but you can never give back.

You should be able to answer this yourself Lemur, you already have two little Lemurlings. As a father (and your wife), don't you make a number of decisions for them already? Things that involve their physical and mental health? If you and others believe that this is something you want to let them decide on later in life, that's your own deal and we can respect that, but the you all need to get off your high horses about how some of us are "mutilating our boys" and this is "child abuse", and all the other nonsense flying around about this.

Goofball couldn't have said it better, my thoughts are exactly the same as his, if/when in the near future I end up with boys, they will be circumcized as well, because we believe the benefits vastly outstrip the potential negatives. This is an informed decision that we have made as future parents, and that's that.

[Kadagar_AV]

ehm.... what are the benefits?

[TinCow]

Somebody's gotta stand up for the wang.

Doesn't the wang stand up for itself?

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be here all week.

[Whacker]

Doesn't the wang stand up for itself?

Thank you! Thank you! I'll be here all week.

Oh noes! He's channeling Gregoshi! Someone get him the antidote quick before the puns get worse!!

[Gregoshi]

Doesn't the wang stand up for itself?

Thank you! Thank you!

Just what this thread needs - a stand up comic...

I'll be here all week.

...apparently on Viagra.

[Samurai Waki]

But with the rise of new Technology, in twenty or so years the damage done by circumcision may not be so much of a big deal. You can have your cake and eat it too (though I suggest against that).

[Goofball]

Why didn't you wait until he was old enough to decide for himself?

Getting circumcized as an infant is about a 15 minute procedure that involves very little pain and is completely healed in about 3-5 days.

Getting circumcized as an adult involves quite a bit of pain and has a much longer recovery time with more possibilities of complication.

I was present during the whole process and quite frankly, my son seemed to go through less discomfort during the circumcision than he did when undergoing another medical process that his criminal father subjected him to against his will: vaccinations.

Well you do get an anacetic during, and anyway, I'm betting he was a lot younger and basically unable to protest when chopped.

You don't have children do you? Believe me: infants are more than capable of "protesting" when something is being done to them that they don't like. My son made very little fuss when he was circumcised. He cried when he was put down on the table because it was cold, and that's about it.

The circumcision process, when done on an infant in a proper clinical environment, is not nearly as traumatic and painful as the anti circumcision camp try to make it out to be.

Still think I should be prosecuted?

No, I just think you're wrong.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. You can think I'm wrong all day long. I just take exception to people suggesting that I'm a criminal because of a parenting decision I've made that they disagree with (yes, I know that wasn't you originally, but you did "pick up the ball," so to speak).

There are those among us (myself included) who believe that the medical and social benefits of circumcision are real and outweight any downside. For that reason, I had my son circumcised after he was born.

You know your feelings on the matter. Excellent. But shouldn't the decision have been left up to your boy? If he wants to snip, he can do so when he's older. Remember, you can always take away, but you can never give back.

As has been said by Whacker, you as a parent should realize that by the time your children reach their majority, you will have made hundreds, if not thousands of important decisions on their behalf, all in the belief that you are doing what is best for them. We make these decisions based on our analysis of the information that is available to us at the time.

What I have noted about this discussion is that none of us who believe in the benefits of circumcision have mentioned trying to force circumcision on other parents' children, or have even really gone out of our way to try to convince you that it is something you should do.

On the other hand, the anti-circumcision camp seems adamant in their belief that they are right and want to (at best) exert pressure on other parents not to circumcise and (at worst) criminalise the idea of infant circumcision.

Just saying, is all...



As far as "you can't give it back," goes, yes I did weigh that up when making my decision. But it also works the other way. Given the pain, recovery time, and complications that can arise when being circumcised as an adult vs as a child, by not circumcising my son, I felt I would be removing that choice for him. So either way I was taking away an option.

I am very glad that I am circumcised, but having seen what the results of adult circumcision are first hand I would never have opted to have it done as an adult. Because at that point, I don't believe the benefits outweigh to pain and suffering an adult goes through after being circumcised.

[Blodrast]

But with the rise of new Technology, in twenty or so years the damage done by circumcision may not be so much of a big deal. You can have your cake and eat it too (though I suggest against that).

Saaaay, what do you know that the rest of us don't ? I sure hope that this Technology you speak of is not in the same boat with the one hinted at in all the emails for enlarging my manhood that I've been getting...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Getting circumcized as an infant is about a 15 minute procedure that involves very little pain and is completely healed in about 3-5 days.

Getting circumcized as an adult involves quite a bit of pain and has a much longer recovery time with more possibilities of complication.

At the endo of the day that answer boils down to "convenience" I don't believe that circumcision as a child is near as damaging as an adult, nor do I see any prupose behind it in our modern world beyond the cosmetic while I can see plenty of problems and potentional problems.

I'm 20 and everything works fine, most of the guys I know are uncut and none of them have had it drop off either. Throughout history most European men have not had the chop and we didn't die out as a civilisation.

It seems like circumsision is only an advantage if you're lazy.

[Goofball]

At the endo of the day that answer boils down to "convenience" I don't believe that circumcision as a child is near as damaging as an adult, nor do I see any prupose behind it in our modern world beyond the cosmetic while I can see plenty of problems and potentional problems.

I'm 20 and everything works fine, most of the guys I know are uncut and none of them have had it drop off either. Throughout history most European men have not had the chop and we didn't die out as a civilisation.

It seems like circumsision is only an advantage if you're lazy.

You've hit the nail on the head. I'm a lazy guy who just can't be bothered with washing my penis.

[Lemur]

As a father (and your wife), don't you make a number of decisions for them already? Things that involve their physical and mental health?

Yup. And my rule of thumb is, "First do no harm."

If you and others believe that this is something you want to let them decide on later in life, that's your own deal and we can respect that, but the you all need to get off your high horses about how some of us are "mutilating our boys" and this is "child abuse", and all the other nonsense flying around about this.

I've never said any such thing. My goal is persuasion, not to demonize you or call you names. I'm sorry others have done so.

Goofball couldn't have said it better, my thoughts are exactly the same as his, if/when in the near future I end up with boys, they will be circumcized as well, because we believe the benefits vastly outstrip the potential negatives.

What are the benefits?

What I have noted about this discussion is that none of us who believe in the benefits of circumcision have mentioned trying to force circumcision on other parents' children, or have even really gone out of our way to try to convince you that it is something you should do.

On the other hand, the anti-circumcision camp seems adamant in their belief that they are right and want to (at best) exert pressure on other parents not to circumcise and (at worst) criminalise the idea of infant circumcision.

Who has talked about criminalization? Is it helpful to portray those who disagree with you as fanatics?

The reason I've posted about it is that I made the decision myself not too long ago, and I did a gah-load of reading and studying before I made up my mind. I didn't exactly walk into this with a preconceived notion.

Children, like animals, are dependent on us to make good decisions and not mess them up. They have very few rights. So why do people like me advocate that you treat them differently? Well, at least party it's because they can't.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, I'm really curius about this alos, what benefits, decreased sensativity might equate to a longer fuse, so to speak, but that again seems rather like a convient excuse for not putting any real effort in.

[Lemur]

It's good to be suspicious about any fixed goal for which the rationale is constantly shifting.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

As I recall the original claim of health benefits was based on the lower incidence of STDs in the Jewish community, ignoring the fact that at that time the Jewish community was essentially closed so if no one had an STD no one was going to catch one.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What are the benefits?

Reducing the chance of urinary tract infection by a factor of 10, reducing the risk of getting hpv, reducing the chance of transmitting hpv and thus of the female getting cervical cancer...need I go on? Where did you do your research?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You get hpv from having unprotected sex with someone who has HPV and how dirty do you have to be to get an infected urinary tract in any case.

They're both simple hygine issues.

[Goofball]

What I have noted about this discussion is that none of us who believe in the benefits of circumcision have mentioned trying to force circumcision on other parents' children, or have even really gone out of our way to try to convince you that it is something you should do.

On the other hand, the anti-circumcision camp seems adamant in their belief that they are right and want to (at best) exert pressure on other parents not to circumcise and (at worst) criminalise the idea of infant circumcision.

Who has talked about criminalization? Is it helpful to portray those who disagree with you as fanatics?

Lemur, believe me, I would not have made the statement had it not happened. See below:

My point of view... as an atheist.

I believe anyone who feels like cutting in their penis should be allowed to do so.

However, doing it on someone who is newly born and doesnt have a say is in my view considered to be torture and should be prosecuted.

i have a friend whos parents are jewish... he however doesnt really fall for teh godstuff, and he kind of hate them for having cut his penis to shreds.

Mainly because the girls go "wtf is that" when they see it...

And of course, it makes the penis less sensitive, and I and probably any other man kind of likes a sensitive penis, for various reasons;)

So feel free to cut away, but forcing it on someone should be illegal.

EDIT: For me the question boils down to: who does the penis belong to? The child or the parents? For me the answer is simple.

Still think I am just trying to portray those who disagree with me as fanatics?

What are the benefits?

As I have said before, some are medical, and some are social/esthetic:

1) Reduced risk of STDs
2) Women (in my experience) find it more attractive and are more willing to perform certain "services"
3) Easier maintenance
4) Reduced risk of cancer
5) (In my son's case) Looking the same as his father and hence feeling "normal" (that was my wife's main reason for supporting the decision, along with the esthetic issue)

So, what are the drawbacks of circumcision?

It's good to be suspicious about any fixed goal for which the rationale is constantly shifting.

I am not the one with a fixed goal Lemur, you are. I am not trying to convince you to circumcise your children; I couldn't care less what you do with your kids. In fact, if you're not circumcised, I think it's probably a better decision not to circumcise your own kids (see #5 above). On the other hand, you have been doing your best this thread to convince everybody else how evil circumcision is backed up by only vague references to how "it's bad for the childrens."

My rationale has not been shifting. I have maintained the same reasoning the entire thread.

[drone]

I worked with a guy who had to get whacked. He was in his twenties, and in his words "broke his banjo string" during intercourse. Circumcision was the only realistic solution. Took him a couple of weeks before he could walk without discomfort, but he was fine after that.

I imagine, with the end result being the same, he would have preferred having the operation as a baby.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

What, you mean the, oh what's it called, begins with a F, that bit?

That thing breaks on guys all tyhe time, most docters tell you to put a paper towl on it, you can get it cauterised.

Having the snip seems really extreme for that.

[Whacker]

Yup. And my rule of thumb is, "First do no harm."

I couldn't agree more with your sentiment. The difference here is that I do not see this as harmful at all, the exact opposite in fact.

I've never said any such thing. My goal is persuasion, not to demonize you or call you names. I'm sorry others have done so.

My statement was more directed at some of the other Backroomers here, but you were getting a bit ... well... preachy there.

What are the benefits?

See Sasaki's post above please.

Who has talked about criminalization? Is it helpful to portray those who disagree with you as fanatics?

A few people have mentioned it in passing or hinted at criminalization. And Goofball has hit the nail on the head to be honest. Several posts in here have been 'fanatical' in claiming circumcision should be forced on everyone, and those who don't should be criminalized and/or treated as child abusers.

Also Lemur-san, while I agree it's good to be skeptical of things where the logic and reasoning keeps changing, we should also consider the reasoning behind the reasoning and take into account our own perceptions and prejudices as well. For example, consider that even though you did do a lot of research, perhaps you were just around and/or exposed to a large number of ignorant people who blindly espoused the concept without any background, and that soured you to it conciously or unconciously? Further, you have to consider also that this is a medical issue, and our understanding of the medical world is constantly changing, almost daily as we figure out new things and discard old, incorrect ones.

They're both simple hygine issues.

It's not remotely as simple as you try to make it out to be. Some people are just dirtier and more prone to disease and infection than others are. Some people are lazy or ignorant. I hope my children will be none of these, but we won't have to worry about that because of the decision we've made.

[TinCow]

I provide the following information for statistical purposes only, since personal experience seems far more valuable to this discussion than reading an internet article.

I was circumcised when I was an infant. I do not know if it hurt or was otherwise unpleasant because I do not remember it in any way. Personally, I take that to be sign that it wasn't very painful. In contrast, my earliest memory is getting vaccination shots at about the same time. To this day I am terrified of needles.

I have never had any difficulties being circumcised nor have I, nor any of partners, ever had any complaints about my abilities. I can only speak for myself, but trust me, I have no decrease in sensitivity. I do not know much at all about health benefits, but I am personally extremely happy that I am circumcised simply for cosmetic reasons. Being happy with how you look is a very important thing and my wife and I both prefer the snipped appearance to the non-snipped.

So, as I see it, it is a procedure that is less traumatic for an infant than getting injections, plus it improves his physical appearance later in life. That's a good enough reason for me. If there are health benefits on top of it, that's even better, but even if there were not, it wouldn't change my opinion. My wife and I both agree that any son we have will be circumcised for these reasons.

[Xiahou]

As I have said before, some are medical, and some are social/esthetic:

1) Reduced risk of STDs
2) Women (in my experience) find it more attractive and are more willing to perform certain "services"
3) Easier maintenance
4) Reduced risk of cancer
5) (In my son's case) Looking the same as his father and hence feeling "normal" (that was my wife's main reason for supporting the decision, along with the esthetic issue)

So, what are the drawbacks of circumcision?

Interestingly enough, I just came across this news piece:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Millions of new HIV infections in Africa could be avoided if more men were circumcised, an International AIDS Society conference was told on Tuesday.

Studies in Africa have found that male circumcision, the world's oldest surgical procedure dating back to 2300 BC, reduces HIV transmission from females to males by 60 percent.

Universal circumcision could avert 2 million new infections and 300,000 deaths in sub-Saharan Africa over 10 years, said Professor Robert Bailey from the School of Public Health at the University of Illinois in Chicago.

"If we had a vaccine that was 60 percent protective we would be very happy and rolling it out as fast as possible," Bailey told the IAS conference in Sydney.

"But no one stands to profit from male circumcision -- no one but the 4,000 in Africa who will be infected tomorrow."

Africa is the epicenter of the AIDS epidemic. South Africa has an estimated 5.5 million people with HIV and is struggling to stem the spread of the disease in the general population.

But African nations such as Cameroon and Nigeria, where circumcision is common, have a much lower rate of HIV infection than Zimbabwe and Swaziland where there is little circumcision.

The idea of using circumcision as a weapon against AIDS emerged after studies in Uganda, Kenya, Malawi, Zambia and the United States found the potential to significantly reduce infections, said Bailey, adding the World Health Organisation has now endorsed circumcision as a disease prevention method.

"The challenge ahead for us is how to roll out circumcision safely ... and to persuade leaders in countries that it is going to help their populations," Bailey told a news conference.

There are many benefits to circumcision. Don't want one for yourself or your children? Fine, I could really care less. But this constant denial of any benefit is borderline delusional imo. Recent studies have actually had to terminate early because it was unethical to continue to deny men the procedure in the face of obvious benefits.

I for one, am glad I had it done as a newborn where it was a simple procedure that I don't even remember, as opposed having to choose later when it would be much more traumatic. If I ever have a son, I'll have it done without hesitation.

People here can make there own decisions, but in third world countries, where millions die of HIV and other STDs, circumcision really should be encouraged.

"If we had a vaccine that was 60 percent protective we would be very happy and rolling it out as fast as possible," Bailey told the IAS conference in Sydney.

Says it all, really.

[Ironside]

As I have said before, some are medical, and some are social/esthetic:

1) Reduced risk of STDs
2) Women (in my experience) find it more attractive and are more willing to perform certain "services"
3) Easier maintenance
4) Reduced risk of cancer
5) (In my son's case) Looking the same as his father and hence feeling "normal" (that was my wife's main reason for supporting the decision, along with the esthetic issue)

So, what are the drawbacks of circumcision?

Without any particular research:
1) 2 and 5 reversed.
2) Risk of complications during the procedure
3) Increased numbness down there
4) Financial cost

It's fairly certain that the benefit/drawback ratio is pretty much close to 1, minor drawbacks and minor benefits.

I am not the one with a fixed goal Lemur, you are. I am not trying to convince you to circumcise your children; I couldn't care less what you do with your kids. In fact, if you're not circumcised, I think it's probably a better decision not to circumcise your own kids (see #5 above). On the other hand, you have been doing your best this thread to convince everybody else how evil circumcision is backed up by only vague references to how "it's bad for the childrens."

My rationale has not been shifting. I have maintained the same reasoning the entire thread.

Lemur isn't refering to your rationale, he refers to how the public message of why circumcision is good has changed several times since 1900 (when it started to become popular).
It's that he finds suspicious (he had 2 major threads on this before).

Edit: Xiahou is that the same area were dry sex are popular in Africa? It's been talked about in earlier threads.