Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

[Jack Lusted]

This is beginning to sound a bit bad for eastern factions.

I thin i forgot to mention this in the blog but units with composite bows have their own projectile type now, with better accuracy than normal arrows. Whilstit may look like the eastern factions are now weaker, they are not. Especially in the Crusades campaign where both the Turks and Egypt get quite a few new units.

Have any of the combat animations changed at all?

No.

Has the effects of discipline, training or stamina received any changes?

No, but the effect of terrain on some units has been changed.

Will melee weapon upgrades still give +6 attack?

I'll have to check with the Oz guys.

Does the mass of the riders factor into cavalry charging power?

Yes, but the mass of the mount is more important.

What effects do back-mounted shields (used by Varangian Guards, Dvor Cavalry, etc.) now have?

Same as before.

[Zenicetus]

I thin i forgot to mention this in the blog but units with composite bows have their own projectile type now, with better accuracy than normal arrows. Whilstit may look like the eastern factions are now weaker, they are not. Especially in the Crusades campaign where both the Turks and Egypt get quite a few new units.

I still don't get this. There are foot archers that use composite bows, but they're not getting the 25% unit size reduction like HA's will. What happens when HA's go up against foot archers using composite bows? The increased accuracy from the new projectile type is the same on both sides, but the reduced numbers are still a major nerf for the HA's.

Instead of fixing something by making smaller HA units "easier to manage," it might actually increase the micromanagement of running a HA-heavy army, because you'll need more HA units in a stack to accomplish the same thing you did before this change.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Will the anti blobbing thingy be toned down? I am so sick andtired of my units starting off in a square formation only to end up in the horde formation (like the peasants in RTW) after a minute of fighting and creeping backwards at that.

[anders]

about archers/misile infantrys melee stats being reduced, will this affect the "dual" archers too(norse archers, venetian archers, scos guard etc,) so their dual role is lost, or is it just the "pure" archers that are reduced.

for those who worry about their HAs going up against foot archers, cant you just run the foot archers down?

[icek]

they need to be reduced so new cavalry can always beat them.

[Orda Khan]

about archers/misile infantrys melee stats being reduced, will this affect the "dual" archers too(norse archers, venetian archers, scos guard etc,) so their dual role is lost, or is it just the "pure" archers that are reduced.

for those who worry about their HAs going up against foot archers, cant you just run the foot archers down?

If the archers are taken off skirmish mode, they will reduce the HA to half its size in no time. Even if a charge by the HA is successful, they will lose some in the unit. Do you see 18 - 25 HA causing much of a stir among 75 spearmen with shields?

I still don't get this. There are foot archers that use composite bows, but they're not getting the 25% unit size reduction like HA's will. What happens when HA's go up against foot archers using composite bows? The increased accuracy from the new projectile type is the same on both sides, but the reduced numbers are still a major nerf for the HA's.

Precisely!
Even against ordinary archers they will suffer too many losses to then be effective, because of the 2-1 ratio. Regardless of accuracy, the HA unit is still half the size of the archers

....Orda

[John_Longarrow]

Orda,

If you are shooting at enemy archers with your horse archers, you may wish to try a different tactic. Set the cav to loose formation and charge the enemy archers.

If they are in front of enemy spears, they should fall back before your horse archers. Your horse archers can then go back to skirmishing (where they are much quicker) and open up on the spears.

If they are out in the open, 60 archers who have had their melee ability reduced should get chopped to bits by 30 HAs that charge them.

I've a feeling that once we start playing with Kingdoms more of this will be easily seen. I've tried out LTC and I've found Cav to be just as useful as before, but you can't just charge everything head on anymore. It does take some getting use to, but the changes are not so massive that you have to relearn how to use your armies.

[FactionHeir]

In my own private rebalance of units, I found that although having lowered cav attack values but increased mount mass as well as increasing projectile accuracy (the composite and bodkin ones for archers and the steel crossbow for xbows), cavalry are very vulnerable to missiles, so their normal units size would still allow them to deal a good deal of damage.
Decreasing the cav unit size may make them move more easily on larger unit sizes, but on small and medium, they will be cut down by any army that has several decent missile troops.

I would imagine that a unit of longbows having a high range and hiding behind an infantry (not necessarily spear) formation will stop the cavalry charge before they could deal any large amount of damage while having to ride around the flanks or rear. Archers may be weaker in melee, but that doesn't help the cavalry.

Also, the other trouble with weaking cavalry stats, although making their charges slightly more powerful, is that they will be very weak in melee (along with their now smaller unit size), meaning all they are good for is charging and chasing routers. Considering that with each charge the unit they are charging can just ignore their current opponent and turn towards the cavalry (double click run disengage quick turn+attack) to cut them down (again, smaller unit size so faster to kill).

On a side note, have cav charges against cav been fixed in Kingdoms? In M2TW it is quite dishearting to see cav charge each other with damage only being done with the swords. Same if cavalry charge another cavalry that is static but in formation.

[Zenicetus]

Orda,

If you are shooting at enemy archers with your horse archers, you may wish to try a different tactic. Set the cav to loose formation and charge the enemy archers.

This isn't about tactics, it's about numbers. HA's are suddenly losing 25% of their numbers before the battle even starts.

I'm having trouble seeing how anything can balance that, including changed tactics. And for that matter, why should I have to change HA tactics that worked perfectly well in the vanilla game, and that are more-or-less historically accurate? We'll just have to be shuffling more HA units around the battlefield to make up the numbers of archers we had before, which means more micro-management hassles, and we'll have a smaller pinning/distraction force of infantry (or whatever) to work with. Every additional HA unit I have to put in the stack to make up the 25% force reduction, has to come from somewhere else.

I sure hope they're testing this change with factions like Turks and Hungarians, to make sure it doesn't throw the whole HA dynamic out of whack, and that it doesn't add more micro to an already micro-heavy battle tactic.