Kingdoms Battle Map Balance - Latest Blog entry

[Zenicetus]

Orda,

If you are shooting at enemy archers with your horse archers, you may wish to try a different tactic. Set the cav to loose formation and charge the enemy archers.

This isn't about tactics, it's about numbers. HA's are suddenly losing 25% of their numbers before the battle even starts.

I'm having trouble seeing how anything can balance that, including changed tactics. And for that matter, why should I have to change HA tactics that worked perfectly well in the vanilla game, and that are more-or-less historically accurate? We'll just have to be shuffling more HA units around the battlefield to make up the numbers of archers we had before, which means more micro-management hassles, and we'll have a smaller pinning/distraction force of infantry (or whatever) to work with. Every additional HA unit I have to put in the stack to make up the 25% force reduction, has to come from somewhere else.

I sure hope they're testing this change with factions like Turks and Hungarians, to make sure it doesn't throw the whole HA dynamic out of whack, and that it doesn't add more micro to an already micro-heavy battle tactic.

[John_Longarrow]

Zenicetus

If their accuracy increases, their numbers can be reduced while maintaining the same offensive firepower.

If it normally takes 10 HA's to inflict one kill per volley, you can kill on average 4 enemy soldiers per volley with the old unit size. If you increase their accuracy so that it only takes 5 HA's to inflict one kill, a unit of 30 HA's will inflict 6 kills per volley. That would be a 50% increase in offensive power.

As such, if missile accuracy is increased proportionately to their reduction in numbers, HA's will still be just as useful as they are now even with fewer troops. It is possible that their accuracy was increased enough that they will inflict more casualties per volley with a 30 man unit than they did before the rebalance with a 40 man unit.

If this is how they are balanced, it would make a lot of sence. It would also keep them in line with other cav units (ie, not stronger than the reduced number of light cav in opposing forces) without giving up their offensive power.

They would not be able to match other missile units one on one, but they can't do that now. They will still have to do exactly what they do now when confronted by superior enemy missile units.

Until we see how they play out, I don't think it makes any sence to argue over it. Post Kingdoms we may discover that the increase in accuracy is too much and needs to be toned down to keep 30 man HA units from dominating other units.

[Zenicetus]

Zenicetus
If their accuracy increases, their numbers can be reduced while maintaining the same offensive firepower.

It's not only about offense, but defense as well... or actually, survivability of unit cohesion over time. A HA unit with 30 archers simply doesn't last as long on the battlefield as one with 40 archers, regardless of how much damage it's inflicting (because, obviously, it can be taking fire from more units than the one it's shooting at).

In a tough battle where the HA unit is taking incoming fire and sustaining losses, it's going to lose morale and rout 25% faster if the numbers are cut by that amount... unless there's some morale boost to make up for it, which I haven't heard about. Even if the morale WAS boosted to prevent early routing, the unit still won't last as long in combat as an effective fighting force, as it does now. So I'll have to be more cautious in the use of HA's... and for no other reason than an arbitrary (as far as I can see) reduction in numbers.

Add that on top of a potential increase in micro, if the increase in accuracy isn't a perfect 1:1 balance and I have to use more HA units on the field... and it just doesn't sound good to me.

If it normally takes 10 HA's to inflict one kill per volley, you can kill on average 4 enemy soldiers per volley with the old unit size. If you increase their accuracy so that it only takes 5 HA's to inflict one kill, a unit of 30 HA's will inflict 6 kills per volley. That would be a 50% increase in offensive power.

Well, we don't know the accuracy boost will mean anything like that much increase in offensive power. Since foot archers aren't being reduced in number, that would be a massive boost in offense for Eastern foot archers compared to Western units. I don't see that happening. Even if the boost was that big, it doesn't mean that much, if I don't have enough soldiers to absorb incoming fire and last through the battle.

Until we see how they play out, I don't think it makes any sence to argue over it. Post Kingdoms we may discover that the increase in accuracy is too much and needs to be toned down to keep 30 man HA units from dominating other units.

I'm not trying to argue about it, I'm just wondering how they're possibly going to balance this out... especially at normal army size. I can see where this reduction in unit size might make sense for melee cav with all the other balancing adjustments, but for HA's? I'm not seeing the light, so far. They don't have the punch from a charge that you get with melee cav... that's not how they operate. They depend on lasting long enough on the battlefield to do their harassment and wearing-down thing, and they're relatively lightly armored too (most of them).

I'm also interested because it might affect whether I actually buy Kingdoms or not. I enjoy using HA-based Eastern factions... not exclusively, and I'm not that good at it, but I'm trying to get better. It's a fun break from the Western army build and tactics. But the one real hassle of running a HA army is the micro, and if this new balancing means I have to use more HA units than I do now in a stack, or if they rout faster because the units are smaller, I just might pass on Kingdoms. I don't think CA would make that mistake, unless they're only beta testing with huge army sizes, but I haven't heard anything from Lusted that really alleviates my concerns here.

[Durallan]

he did say that in the crusades campaign the eastern factions get new units. Is it really that important to write several hundred words about it? I seriously doubt that reducing the numbers from 40-30 will affect them, they've always been hard to fight catch and kill from a western empire side of view now it sounds like itll be even harder, so I don't see that you ahve that much to complain about.

[Jack Lusted]

he did say that in the crusades campaign the eastern factions get new units.

Indeed they do, the Turks get 6 and Egypt 8 in the Crusades campaign.

But the one real hassle of running a HA army is the micro, and if this new balancing means I have to use more HA units than I do now in a stack, or if they rout faster because the units are smaller, I just might pass on Kingdoms.

You won't, even with the reduced numbers horse archers are still powerful and you won't need to use more army slots on them to make up for the reduced numbers. The smaller number of troops actually makes them harder to hit when in loose formation as there are fewer of them.

[John_Longarrow]

Lusted,

If the change is comparable to playing LTC, then what most players will notice is they actually take casualties on their cav. I've been playing a Scots campaing and I found I do need to reinforce my border horses after a fight because, unlike vanilla, I do loose horsemen.

For some people this will be a major change. For me, it mean I actually have to treat cav the same as other units, a change I like. I've already done all of the mini-campaigns and I was amazed at how deadly the Hungarians are in the Italian campaign. If Kingdoms has about the same balance as LTC does, I don't think HAs will be weak.

[Orda Khan]

he did say that in the crusades campaign the eastern factions get new units. Is it really that important to write several hundred words about it? I seriously doubt that reducing the numbers from 40-30 will affect them, they've always been hard to fight catch and kill from a western empire side of view now it sounds like itll be even harder, so I don't see that you ahve that much to complain about.

They get new units in Crusades campaign.......only.
Since those several hundred words make a valid point, yes it is. HA are vulnerable to arrows and anyone who knows how to use archers will quickly reduce the HA to a point where they can be more or less ignored. Regardless of better accuracy, they will still be vulnerable to arrows and 30 will be reduced in number faster than 40.

If you are shooting at enemy archers with your horse archers, you may wish to try a different tactic.

I do not waste HA arrows on cheap units like archers

.......Orda

[John_Longarrow]

Orda,

I'd suggest you download Lands to Conquer and try it out. There is a different feel to it, and all units tend to take more casualties. That should tell you about what you want to know for how cav is changing.

[icek]

I ecited this post after playing lands to conquer. I charged frontally on dfk with polish guard and killed them instantly losing one men. Then i charged into spear militia with polish knights and killed 60% of unit with first blow, second charge defeated them, i lost 33% of unit. but i was scared when i saw dismounted english knights stats (19 att, 16 def) and heavy billmen (14,13) :|

[andrewt]

Are javelin and gun cavalry affected by the increased accuracy as well? I like playing missile cavalry heavy factions and frequently use up all my ammo. Javelin cavalry are especially affected by this as they use up all their ammo quickly then fight in melee. Will the increased accuracy offset the smaller unit size, and hence, smaller amount of missiles available?

[Orda Khan]

Very disappointing when you finally get to the bottom of things. Sad to say, nothing changes

......Orda