EB Preview : Hayasdan Reforms

[artavazd]

Originally Posted by Krusader
When someone writes the commands in Armenian accompanied by a pronunciation guide.



If thats all that is needed I can do that, now I don't really have that much time but in a week or three I could do it


I have already done about 60-65% of the translations. foot and I started on this a year ago. Its been put on hold now. I dont know if foot still has my translations in his email.

[Karo]

Artavadz jan if you need any help just help me I would love to help with Hayastan

[artavazd]

Karo do you have a microphone which you can record with?? I dont have one. Like I said the translations are 60-65% finished with two to three translations for each command. Lets see if foot still has them, and maybe you can be the voice for them

[sass]

Can you post a histroical sorce for the colors and brightness of the new genreals skin? what the heck was wrong with the cold steal catafract bodie guarde of old? or is that an early body guard? the new one i mean..

[Karo]

Karo do you have a microphone which you can record with?? I dont have one. Like I said the translations are 60-65% finished with two to three translations for each command. Lets see if foot still has them, and maybe you can be the voice for them

Ap jan ofcourse I got one

@Sassyes that's a early bodyguard for Hayastan and after some time it changes to the tank we got no

[sass]

Nice very Nice...

[Foot]

Man, I'm so going to have a field day with this.

@foot I've got a question when you're trying to build a cucasian empire so the first reform can happen what is there to do about the grey dead attacking you before that time. if they attack you before you're finished building a real kingdom you're going to be toasted. Because you're core units will not be availble in the begining as I understood. so can there be something done about them attacking you before the first reforme

I haven't really had a play-test with this new system, but from the little I have done (waiting for the next internal version to come out) I think I would like to increase the income for Hayasdan to allow a profit to be made even with a small skirmisher defence force. As to the aggressiveness of AS, I think nothing much can be done (though I have found a gift of 100 minai does a hell of a lot) until EB2 where we will have greater control over AI aggressiveness.

sass does touch on a few things that had me worried for a while...

The description on the first page is a little impenetrable, it's sometimes not immediately obvious (to me) which restrictions apply to which provinces. But after re-reading it a few times, it seems that you have:

My apologies, its quite hard to write for someone who hasn't a clue as to how a system works whilst being a person intimately involved with the process.

a) Generally slowed down the process of assimilation and government building for the Hai. Is this going to happen to other factions?

b) Required that some things be done in a certain order, e.g. you must bulild roads and markets and poulation in Armavir, then Type 1 government in Armavir, before you can build a Type 1 government in Ani Kamah or Type 2 in Kotais. This is a new restriction.

c) Added some stuff about recreating the Achaemenid dydnasty if you choose to go in a certain direction and meet certain conditions. But you don't require players to go in that direction, the Achaemenids can also be forgotten.

Am I reading it right?

I've only slowed down the process for Type I and Type II governments, and only excessively has this been slowed down outside of the Caucasus. Within the Caucasus it isn't too bad and can be easily changed. Otherwise you are entirely correct on all points.

I found the announcement a bit alarming at first, e.g. I was worried that I would have to conquer Sophene and give myself a land frontier with the Seleucids before I could get the reforms to let me build the governments (and hence MICs/troops) I want. But on a close reading, that doesn't seem to be the case.

No that is not the case. Once the building of a Type I Gov is done in Hayasdan then all the precursor buildings are placed for the Caucasus region.

Pfft. If you don't like it, you can get a team of a couple of dozen people together and work for a few years and make your own mod. Pull the other leg, it's got bells on. ;)

From learning the scripting language to doing the entire script took a couple of days hard work. The extra work, the building descrs and stuff took longer. Modding is far easier than you seem to make out, especially when you are taking out stuff and not inputing new stuff. Don't know what you are complaining about.

please can you expand on this a bit foot.

do you mean that we wont be able to build alliance government outside of the caucasus?

i.e if you go and take the provinces north of the black sea, or take over the sarmatian provinces you will not be able to build any troops?

if so this would be a nightmare

i have a long-haysadan campaign.

in my campaign i took out the selucids first- which would kind of fit with these changes. this was mainly out of necessity as we were at war from the start and they will never make peace.

after the selucids i set about taking all the provinces surrounding the black sea. this brought me into war with the getai, sweboz and sarmatians. This has probably been the most enjoyable part of my campaign - very different fighting style of the enemies i now encounter. PLus MOST importantly i have really enjoyed the new troops i can recruit in this region - greek units like hoplites in the coastal regions, nomad style troops like scythian horse archers and nobles, thracian nobles etc.

are you telling me that these troops will no longer be available to the hay-player?

Personally I find the idea of installing a government in a nomadic area being entirely absurd to the point of being game-breaking for me. Personally I would like to see no government available in provinces that had the nomadism building in it and the only recruitment in those provinces coming from mercs. Not got a solid plan for that, but I am working on it - slowly.

As for the moment type III and type IV govs are available in every province as for every other faction.

i hope so!

my only complaint about the haysadan so far has been the slightly limited recruitment options once you expand beyond their natural boundaries. I currently hold a few german provinces and the only units availabe are celtic slingers & spearmen - i was hoping this kind of thing would be expanded. It would be good if the recruitment options you have in ankyra (light and heavy cav, celtic bowmen etc) were also available in mainland europe.

i believe the getai capital has very lmited recruitment options (perhaps just spearmen) it would be good if we could recruit some unique regionals here.

several of the provinces in the "holy land" i.e modern syria/ lebanon israel etc also have very limited recruitment - though i presume these new changes will help fix it.

also i am now moving south into arabia - so far the recruitment option have been very limited, i believe just spearmen - it would be good if this was expanded.

i was dissapointed that recruiting "phalanx" stlye troops from newly conquered "greek" regions (i.e selucid, ptolmaic and makedon regions) is not possible. i woudl have though that it would be possible to press some of the defeated greeks into your service.
considering you can recruit hoplites in some regions there is a slight contradiction here.

Some of this is model clashes, stuff that will be sorted out in EB2. However some this is a great priority of mine, and whilst I don't want to overstep my bounds, I do want a larger regional recruitment pool for Hayasdan and that is something I am slowly working toward.

could you give an example of the type of troops you will now be able to recruit in a fully reformed Persepolis?

As you have been so kind, here is the preliminary list for Persepolis after the reforms:

Artish Pada
Shuban Fradak
Thanvare Payah
Mada Nizak
Nizag Gund
Mardian Archers
Eransahr Arsht
Mada Asabara
Ayrudzi Netadzik
Mardig Sooser
Zrahikar Netadzik
Nakhararakan Aspet
Nakhararakan Tiknapah

This list is entirely open to change so don't quote it at me if you are later disappointed.

i dont think type 3/4 govs are too unrealistic for nomads - they can be intertpreted as representing an aliance/trubutary/vassal relationship with the regional tribe.

I disagree entirely. I think no government, which represents something far more formal than could be erected in a nomadic province, is perfect with merc recruitment representing alliances with individual tribes within a province.

As to Sass, quite frankly I find your manner insulting. I never said that any changes to my work on EB has "butchering [my] art work", but neither am I going to take time out of my busy schedule to answer all your damn questions on how to change something when all the questions are in the modding forums or can be answered by other fans. I will not respond to anymore of your posts as, to be quite frank, and find your post nauseating and insulting. I hope you have a great time playing the game that we have made, whichever way you play it, but I won't waste any more of time responding to your rude responses to mine or the rest of EBs work. I'm sorry, I just have better things to do, and I am rather hurt by your recent posts.

Foot




Foot

[dbarger58]

after seeing some negative comments on this post i would just like to say i love the idea of restablishing a new persian dynasty and the reforms to do that and would like to say good job Foot and EB team and thanks for all the hard work

[russia almighty]

Gah I always thought in my campaigns as Armenia being Neo-Assyria who just has a taste for Iranian women.

[artavazd]

Gah I always thought in my campaigns as Armenia being Neo-Assyria who just has a taste for Iranian women.


Armenians arent Assyrian nor are we Iranian We Are Armenian. One of the oldest Civilizations on the face of the earth that still exist to this day. Unlike the ancient egyptians assyrians, phrygians,or lydians, who have been for the most part assimilated and lost their identity as a distinct people we have kept our distinct culture and language over the centuries. This reform does not mean armenians are or were persian. It merely signifies an Armenian king wanting to re creat the Achaemenid empire.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Of course, Artavazd only speaks in general terms; The Armenians have retained a very unique language and script, whereas the former have a few touches of Caucasian and Iranian lingual influences. They are not Iranians, but they constitute a significant historical Persianate. The later (Satrapal) Orontids, were Iranians, and the later junior Arsacid branch (Arshakuni) were Iranian as well (Though culturally they beg to differ somewhat). The Marzpanate era was heavily Sassanid-influenced. The Artaxiads were the exception that disrupted the so called "Iranian connection" between the satrapal Orontids and the junior Arsacid branch. This forms a dynastic gap, which resumes by Bagratid and Mamikonean influences.

This is of significant weight; The Sassanians considered the Armenians "Êr", or "noble" in the sense of their connection with Êrânshahr or "Land of the nobles". As such, this convention stands more like the Armenian way of interpreting the successful formula of the Achaemenid world order taking much influence from Tigranes The Great.

[artavazd]

Yes Ario. I Know that we Armenians and the Ancient Iranians ( about 30% of modern Iran) share commonalites. We are as you mentioned Er root word for Aryan. ( please people do not start talking about hitler has nothing to do with ww2 germany)

If we look back further we stem from one culture along side the Greeks and even Celts and Germans.

[Geoffrey S]

Only thing I'm not so keen on, looking back on the preview, is the bodyguard. The family member looks fantastic, no doubt about that, but the bodyguard looks a bit washed in colour-wise, particularly the sleeves. Some more shading or a more distinct cloth texture would help a lot. Where those screenshots under vanilla lighting or Goth's mod, by the way?

Still, it says enough that that's the only thing that I have doubts about with regards to the preview. The rest just keeps looking better and better!

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Reading some Arrian "Alexanders' March upcountry"=ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ ΑΝΑΒΑΣΙΣ, for both the voicemod, and personal enjoyment, I have only this to quote, not directed at you in anyway but to all those who throughout the time have doubted, cursed, spat upon and generally mistreated he who is the greatest general/Tactician of all times. (Hannibal very close second)

I imagine Arrian wrote it, as he himself must have been hearing ugly stuff about Alexander from whichever source and for whatever reason..

In capital, as ancient greek was written at the time,

I think will make this my stock answer to those trying to diminish ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ and his legacy, for whichever ugly/fatal flaws his character had, his accomplishments and pure wonder, are nothing but awe inspiring.

What Arrianos wrote is nothing but the truth, millenia ago, and also now. It will also be truth, millenia from now, written in the same letters you see in the first quote, but translated in a different language we can't even imagine, assuming mankind exists then.

THAT is Megas Alexandros' power.

Totally seconded. He was a great man, and if he hadn't died so early (would be interesting to know what he died of.... was he really poisoned by those who were afraid of him? Or a wound which was inflicted by a indian tribesman? Or something completely different?) I hope that one day, Alexandros' mummy will be discovered, to perhaps analyse this (remember Ötzi, perhaps we could read something out of the mummy.... we don't know) But when Alexandros' mummy is found, there will be a great argument. First the egyptians will claim that he was found on their lands, and therefore property of the state. The Greeks will claim that he belongs to Greece. But, well, that's mere speculation.
Alexander has done things that even today a man can only dream of. Some may hate him, even rightfully, but he was a great and worthy man after all. It was just the treachery between the Diadochi that tore his empire apart, Antigonos and perhaps Seleukos being the only ones which wanted to preserve that what Alexander did for his people and the whole known world.

[Sarkiss]

Yes Ario. I Know that we Armenians and the Ancient Iranians ( about 30% of modern Iran) share commonalites. We are as you mentioned Er root word for Aryan. ( please people do not start talking about hitler has nothing to do with ww2 germany)

If we look back further we stem from one culture along side the Greeks and even Celts and Germans.

if you look back we, the Armenians, partially stem from people of ancient kingdom of Ararat - Urartu, sometimes referred to as Khaldians (or Haldians) after their supreme god - Khaldi (Haldi). other part of our identity comes from Phrygian stock, who initially settled on western borders of Urartu, later called Armenian Minor. also Hurrian kingdom of Hayasa that was included in the Urartian hegemony.

Tigran extended the borders of our country up to the edge of our habitation places in antiguity.

Movses Khorenatsi, Book I.24
for those who is interested, besides Chahin's "Kingdom of Armenia" i also recommend 2 volumes of Gabriel Soultanian's "The pre-history of the Armenians".

[I Am Herenow]

The Persian Cataphract, why does Persian have "^" accents? How do they affect pronunciation, and how come there aren't any others? Obviously Persian didn't actually use Latin lettering, so who was it who came up with this concept?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Finding Alexander the Great would be a sensation by far bigger than the excavation of Troy or the location of even the most popular Pharaohs... It would be an event of such inmense international attention and overall importance, that it is to be feared they finally start a war over the possession of Alexandros.

Btw, if Alexandros would come to Greece, would they store him in Athens?

No really, I hope they would build a seperate Museum for him in Vergina or somewhere near Pella and Aigai.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Yeah, after all these years were humanity nearly forgot him (speaking of those who can't afford or don't want to learn for school or whatever) the least we could do for him is building him an own museum. Filled with stuff of his age, weapons, armours and art, and at the very end of the tour, the remains of the greatest human being to have ever existed. That is one of my dreams, alongside seeing the seven wonders of the ancient world in their full glory. But at least seeing Alexander is possible, but unfortunately unlikely because of the problems this world is going through. But I hope that I will live long enough to at least hear the news that his mortal remains were found.
Ah, I'm rambling again....

[The Persian Cataphract]

The Persian Cataphract, why does Persian have "^" accents? How do they affect pronunciation, and how come there aren't any others? Obviously Persian didn't actually use Latin lettering, so who was it who came up with this concept?

It is merely transliteration where long, open (warm) vowels are emphasized through a diacritical symbol called the circumflex. Words like "role" (rôl), "car" (kâr), "rule" (rûl) and "are" (âr) emphasize long and open vowels, while words like "at" and "man" do not share these properties. Sometimes it is spelled out by the macron that shares many of the properties of the circumflex. Other diacritical symbols I use are diaeresis which denotes separate pronunciation keys. Since most people here do not read the Arabic-Persian script, and I do not want to resort to needless double vowel syllables, and I do want to be specific, I make use of these symbols. Latin script in my opinion is superior to the Islamic-inspired script in all possible aspects when transliterating Ancient Iranian languages such as Old Persian, Soghdian and Pahlavî; It specifically kills ambiguity,

[artavazd]

if you look back we, the Armenians, partially stem from people of ancient kingdom of Ararat - Urartu, sometimes referred to as Khaldians (or Haldians) after their supreme god - Khaldi (Haldi). other part of our identity comes from Phrygian stock, who initially settled on western borders of Urartu, later called Armenian Minor. also Hurrian kingdom of Hayasa that was included in the Urartian hegemony.


You didnt understand what I was saying Sarkiss. I wasnt talking about our immidiate ancestors, but the greater indo-european culture we stem from.

[Sarkiss]

You didnt understand what I was saying Sarkiss. I wasnt talking about our immidiate ancestors, but the greater indo-european culture we stem from.

oh, no, i did. just wanted to clarify for a public by being more specific and thanks for your work on the voice mod. cant wait to hear it!

[KARTLOS]

Finding Alexander the Great would be a sensation by far bigger than the excavation of Troy or the location of even the most popular Pharaohs... It would be an event of such inmense international attention and overall importance, that it is to be feared they finally start a war over the possession of Alexandros.

Btw, if Alexandros would come to Greece, would they store him in Athens?

No really, I hope they would build a seperate Museum for him in Vergina or somewhere near Pella and Aigai.

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.

Many of them are at the bottom of the ocean. Arriving there, while being transported from Greece to England.

[I Am Herenow]

Many of them are at the bottom of the ocean. Arriving there, while being transported from Greece to England.

I don't understand :S

You want Alexander's corpse, if it is found, to first be shipped to Greece, and then to Britain? And what do you mean, "many of them are at the bottom of the ocean"?

[Karo]

The ships that were carrying them sunk to the bodem of the ocean i believe that's what he's saying. And if they found the body, they could build a new museaum in Atens or ship it to the british museaum.

[sass]

I very much dout his bodie is much more then bone fragments by now..beings that hellenistic forms of mumifactian where not up to par with the egyptians of yester year..sure his tomb maybe found but his bodie even if found in it prob couldnet be Id'd, I've worked a few sites in eygpt when i was in collage and still go every so offten when there is an opening with the professer every couple years..This may come as a conspericy but the locatian of his tomb has genrealy been known for along time..but a certen someone that runs the show in eygpt thats in charge of all the digs would love to to take all the credit for every single thing discoverd, you'd be amazed at what go's into makeing things public and the fighting that go's on and legel cases before a news story is ever writen up..He insists on being the first person inside a tomb or to remove an object or anything under the sun..So now days when a team has found something note worthy If possiable thy go over his head..After all he's quiet a camra ham To me Persenaly He's only in it to make his name larger then carters or anyone ealse..shame on that man..whos name shall not be said May a hippo eat him and a croc tare him in half

[keravnos]

the best place for alexanders remains would surely be the british museum??

i have heard they have a fantastic collection of greek antiquities.

I think you realise that everything British will be very "hot" as in "burning" commodity in Greece at that point...

They may have shattered Parthenon and took a piece with it, but Alexandros? NO.

A new museum is being built in Vergina, to accomodate all finds in Pella and elsewhere. Makedones (the greek ones, others are well just not Makedones, they are Macedonijans or something) would slay anyone NOT bringing Alexandros back home in Makedonia.

To get back to discussion, imagine what would happen in Armenia if Tigranes the greats' tomb was found and someone tried to take whatever remains there are of him into someplace else.

[Sarkiss]

every time i go to BM it hurts my feelings to see Urartian, Armenian antiques in there while their proper place is Yerevan, and i can imagine how unhappy Greeks must be seeing some much of classical Greek heritage ended up abroad...

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Oops, unfortunately double-posted. Delete this one please.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Yeah, the britain curators are some selfish guys. I thought that if someone became a curator, he would know that things should be displayed in their country. Americans have not been better either..... they have a lot of egyptian mummys in some museums build beneath a high-way....