KotR cataclysmic event discussion thread

[TinCow]

There's also another thing that has not been touched upon. While TinCow plans to orchestrate this whole thing, I don't think he wants his actions to reflect directly on Lothar. So while the Reich goes to ruins, this will be because of outside influence, not because of an incompetent Chancellor, who would surely be stopped by impeachment. I hope everyone understands the last part and acts accordingly should the event occur.

Yes, this will not be "Lothar Gone Wild!" For most of it, I will simply be the 'narrator' telling a story about what is happening to the Reich. The way we are working on it now, a third party character, not controlled by anyone, will be 'responsible' for the actions that spark the crisis. Perhaps Lothar will take over the Chancellorship after that, perhaps not, but even if he does the majority of what happens will be beyond his control.

[FactionHeir]

Perhaps Lothar will take over the Chancellorship after that

Now that would be Steffen Gone Wild. (Assuming you meant consecutive)

[TinCow]

No, the next Chancellorship will definitely be Siegfried's.

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm the way I understood it:
1300-1320 Ituralde
1320-1360 TinCow

[Stig]

You'll always get a new one at some point.

That's the point, I've put so many hours into Ansehelm that I don't want a new one if I can make sure Ansehelm survives

he way we are working on it now, a third party character, not controlled by anyone, will be 'responsible' for the actions that spark the crisis.

Don't like that, I'd rather have an avatar who gets responsible for this.

[TinCow]

Hmmm the way I understood it:
1300-1320 Ituralde
1320-1360 TinCow

I will be playing a 10 turn Chancellorship, like normal, so that would be 1320-1340. The crisis that sparks the event will develop during Ituralde's term and probably begin shortly before the end. Once the first few basic moves have been made, I will take over and the effects of the earlier actions will be implemented.

That's the point, I've put so many hours into Ansehelm that I don't want a new one if I can make sure Ansehelm survives

I promise you that no avatar will die unless you make the choice to place yourself in danger. If you want to play it safe until things cool down and rebuilding begins, I will guarantee your survival.

Don't like that, I'd rather have an avatar who gets responsible for this.

I'm sorry, but I am not going to write a story where Lothar destroys the Reich. The actions that we are planning cannot possibly fit into the character I have created for him. You are not aware of everything that goes on in his life, but he believes himself to be a defender of the Reich, not an evil man. I don't see why I should have to destroy my avatar simply because I have volunteered to engineer this event for the benefit of all the players. Just as you are fond of Ansehelm, I am fond of Lothar and I do not want to see him wrecked. If you want to blame him for the events that happen under his watch, feel free. He is more than capable of responding to slander. However, I simply will not use a plot that makes him the arch-villain of the Reich.

[econ21]

I don't see why I should have to destroy my avatar simply because I have volunteered to engineer this event for the benefit of all the players.

On the other hand, if anyone does want to destroy their avatar helping to engineer this event - do PM TinCow or I. I am sure together we can work you into the story.

More generally, we will provide opportunities for players to shape events - either suggesting general ideas to us OOC; or, when the time comes, organising things in the Diet, in their Houses or providing specific instructions for how their characters will react. We've had some interesting PMs already that we are digesting. And when the event comes, you will not be passive spectators, but will be able to affect how it plays out - probably in ways we can't anticipate.

Hopefully when this takes off, it will spark lots of stories, speeches and side-plots, like the Civil War in WotS.

[FactionHeir]

Hmm maybe Wolfgang wants to run the empire in Lothar's stead? He is very accountable and reliable

[edit]
Just saw econ's post.
Actually, I wouldn't mind having a somewhat disgruntled Hans (depends on the next diet and the one after of course) becoming a villain later on.

[Tamur]

I'm most interested to see how the Houses react to this... Crisis points in history generally lead to the resolution of problems that are completely unrelated to the catastrophe -- the 12th & 13th century plagues, for example, lead to a massive increase in trade due to inheritances and general democratisation of the field.

I have a feeling some of the difficult questions of recent years will be solved rather permanently.

[Privateerkev]

This is more of a communications logistics question.

I'd like to work out a way to keep separate TC's IC and OOC actions. The things he would have to do OOC to engineer this, are things we would gut a person IC for doing normally. I still want Jan to interact with Lothar IC but I don't want to be nailing him for things that are completely OOC like how TC is planning to engineer rebellions. I check the save game at least once a turn. Normally, if I see a city in red face or an army is moved somewhere I don't want, I PM the Chancellor IC and ask for things to be changed.

I guess the point is, there will be things happening that we need to pretend aren't happening. Like, tax levels, capital placement, army composition, and the like. I want to know which of these things to ignore and which to take up with Lothar IC.

I'm assuming through all of this that Lothar will very much be trying to run things as Chancellor and I would like to have Jan interact with him IC. In the meantime, I understand that there will be a lot going on OOC in order to bring about IC effects and I don't want to accidentally confuse the two.

[TinCow]

I'm most interested to see how the Houses react to this... Crisis points in history generally lead to the resolution of problems that are completely unrelated to the catastrophe -- the 12th & 13th century plagues, for example, lead to a massive increase in trade due to inheritances and general democratisation of the field.

I have a feeling some of the difficult questions of recent years will be solved rather permanently.

I am very curious as well. It's entirely possible that the crisis could unite the Houses (and Outremer) and have them cooperating on a level never before seen. At the same time, with the extreme pressure on all fronts and insufficient resources to meet all needs, it's also possible that the fractures will become even greater as the Houses squabble to seize whatever resources they can to save themselves.

This is more of a communications logistics question.

I'd like to work out a way to keep separate TC's IC and OOC actions. The things he would have to do OOC to engineer this, are things we would gut a person IC for doing normally.

I am planning a three tiered system to inform you IC what is going on. Anything that I do not list IC can be assumed to be due to OOC actions and should thus be ignored. The system will be as such:

First, major phases or events will be introduced with a story in the Story thread. These will give background and a plot about what is happening and why. I expect somewhere in the region of 3 to 5 of these during my term, depending on the plot that is chosen.

Second, every game turn will use a modified system of the battle-list postings that Chancellors have been making in the OOC thread for some time. This will include the current status of each avatar in the game, a brief description of the challenges they find themselves in, and a short multiple choice description of possible actions. These multiple choice descriptions will not be definitive by any means, they will merely provide examples of options that are open to you. For example:

Johnny von Hindenburg:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You are the Count of Pfarphenplatz. The city is rioting and half of the garrison has been killed or deserted. You have two groups of knights with you and a large Polish army is nearby. There is no way to hire mercenaries or recruit new garrison units.

(A) Garrison Pfarphenplatz with your knights and attempt to restore order and hold the city.
(B) Ride to Pfarphenplatz and rescue the garrison before they are overwhelmed, then attempt to flee to the safety of Somewhatnearbyville. This will slow you down and you may be caught in the field by the Polish army.
(C) Abandon Pfarphenplatz and ride immediately for Somewhatnearbyville.

People may tell me they want to follow one of these paths or give a path of their own. If a person gives me no information for a particular turn, I will always choose the path that I deem to be best for keeping them alive. If an avatar's situation has not changed much from before, I will likely not give any info on them or simply write a "Proceeding as before" type note. Please note that since I cannot find a way to control the enemy AI, I will sometimes artificially create battles for you. Thus, if in the above example you chose (B) but the AI did not attack you and I want it to, I will move the Polish army near you and have you attack it. Even though the battle will be setup as you attacking, it will be roleplayed as a defensive battle and you will still have to fight it.

Also, the results of every action will not be guaranteed. If you chose (B) you could be attacked in the field, but you could also get lucky and escape without a battle. If you chose (A) you could be successful and restore order, perhaps opening up a new possibility to recruit one new garrison regiment. On the otherhand, you could fail to restore order, and rioting could continue, resulting in the destruction of a further garrison regiment and one of your knight regiments. I will be using a combination of factors to determine the results, including your character traits (i.e. avatars with "popular" traits will have a better chance at restoring order than ones with "unpopular" traits), the arrangement of the armies and the Reich, and my own imagination. I am even toying with the idea of actually rolling a die to determine the result (i.e. "unpopular" avatar succeeds in restoring order on a 1 or 2 on a d6. "popular" avatar suceeds in restoring order on a 1 to 4 on a d6). econ21 did something similar to this with the WOTS Civil War battles and it was excellent.

Finally, the last area will be Chancellor's reports. These will be the only real interaction Lothar has with the game. I will summarize any previous events of significance not covered by the previous areas here. This will also be where Lothar's decisions about how to allocate resources will be made. I do not anticipate there being many resources available to allocate for the majority of the event, so the decisions Lothar has to make will likely be minimal and infrequent. I want to concentrate mainly on the story (the first section) and the 'choose your own adventure' style actions for the players (the second section) rather than a traditional Chancellorship.

[Privateerkev]

Ok, so for ten turns we are drastically changing the elector/chancellor relationship. Thanks for making that more clear to me. What you laid out is probably the best way to administer this. Otherwise, you'd have to think of ways to answer questions as Lothar and which to answer as "engineer of Reich's destruction." If I understand this correctly, Lothar is gonna kind of going into the background. He'll still talk in the other threads and still technically be Chancellor, but most things will be outside of his IC control. You will be replacing that with a largely OOC Chancellor that will run this much more as a RP'ing game or a "choose your own adventure" type story.

So, we can keep PM'ing Lothar IC during this but his own responses will most likely be less-than-helpful due to his own lack of information and control over the situation. Things we would normally notice in the save-game and pounce on IC should probably be ignored IC (except for what you list) and we should interact with you OOC about them.

As an example, if you make Antioch revolt by removing the garrison and raising the taxes, I should do this IC:

Chancellor Lothar,
I am alarmed at the revolt in Antioch. Please send me what resources you can spare to help me ward off the rebellion.

Instead of this which is what I would normally do:

Chancellor Lothar,
I have noticed that you have pushed my city into open revolt by raising taxes and disbanding the garrison. You are endangering the lives of thousands of Imperial citizens as well as imperiling our mission out here in Outremer. I demand that you stop Antioch from rebelling or I will call for an emergency session in the Diet to call for your impeachment.

So, during the 10 turn cataclysm, do option 1 in communicating instead of option 2. How am I doing so far?

[TinCow]

Yes, that would be preferable. Also note that I will even be posting situation reports for Lothar himself. He will be no more safe than anyone else and it will be good for other people to see what he is doing as well. Maybe I'll have my wife roll the die or something.

Actually... maybe we can just say there's no Chancellor for the entire period. Perhaps the Diet (or the Kaiser?) declares a state of emergency and every House, province, and Elector has to fend for themselves. Then I wouldn't even have to worry about the Chancellor thing. Resources and reinforcements will become available to you based on your own actions, rather than politicing.

Keep in mind that even when this is all done with, there will still be a massive rebuilding effort required. The game doesn't just go back to it's old state of HRE world dominance after 10 turns, so there will still be a massive struggle for resources as soon as the crisis is over. That is for the Diet to work on as a group, though.

[StoneCold]

How about during this period, the only resources, aka florins available to each city are those profits the cities make for themselves? To simulate to breakdown of order over the entire Reich?

Also how about letting every assigned avatar and their armies moved by their player and TC not using up the said avatar's movement point? That I think may slow down the game somewhat, but could allow for more individualistic play, i.e. for people who wants their avatar to survive rather than to help out the situations on the whole?

[Privateerkev]

Building off of what TC said, it might be simpler if there is no Chancellor. Make it where at the end of Siegfried's Chancellorship, the cataclysm starts and there is no IC Chancellor at all. Just have TC as a strictly OOC Chancellor. This would allow TC the ability to just wear "one hat" and not worry about confusing us or himself. This would also open up the chance for Lothar to become a real Chancellor some day later and TC would be able to play the role for real.

What does everyone else think about that?

[Kagemusha]

Im against it. I think we should just simply take the role playing effort to the next level. Currently the Diet is acting like we would be acting in real game. In another words we are playing to win, not for the personal ambitions of our characters. There should be lot more radical ideas within character and hostility between houses, ofcourse this can be only done if people can clearly see whats inside character and whats outside.

[Privateerkev]

I think part of the fun of this will be the suspense. I don't want to know much OOC. I want to discover things IC and maybe know a little extra OOC to help with my own planning.

Unless people want a totally separate "spoilers" thread for this during the 10 year reign of terror but I won't read it until after its all done.

[TinCow]

How about during this period, the only resources, aka florins available to each city are those profits the cities make for themselves? To simulate to breakdown of order over the entire Reich?

Resources (for construction/repair of buildings, recruitment of new units, hiring of mercenaries, and repair of units) will only be given when I want them to be. This is to ensure that the crisis remains challenging. If it's based exclusively on profit, Bavaria will an easy time of it, while Swabia will get wrecked. I don't want that to happen. It should be hard, and fair, for all.

In general, resources will be rare and mainly given out for significant achievements. Similarly, the situation will deteriorate for players who fail or get unlucky.

Also how about letting every assigned avatar and their armies moved by their player and TC not using up the said avatar's movement point? That I think may slow down the game somewhat, but could allow for more individualistic play, i.e. for people who wants their avatar to survive rather than to help out the situations on the whole?

Interesting, but too slow and it won't let me do what I want. First, it would require that every player download and play the save every turn, which would take absolutely forever. Second, I may not want a person to be able to move anywhere they wish. I may want them to get ambushed along the way or get lost and move in the wrong direction. I can't do those things if the players are moving themselves.

[Kagemusha]

Maybe we should just add the power of Kaiser and Dukes significantly. Also maybe give Kaiser the power to remove Dukes from office. In order for this to be interesting, i think there should be more internal strife. By that i dont mean only arguing in Diet, but increased role of houses, so much that if a member of rival house would be elected as Chancellor,that would mean trouble for your house immediately. Damned if we just could have civil wars in this game.

[TinCow]

In order for this to be interesting, i think there should be more internal strife.

That's a very good point. In order to implement this, I will include options such as:

(X) The nearby Franconian castle of X is not currently governed. You can use your authority as a Swabian Count to enlist some of their regiments into your own army. They will join you, greatly increasing your strength, but making the Franconian castle vulnerable.

Again, my 'option' list will not be definitive. If you want to do something (like stabbing a neighbouring House in the back) that I have not listed, simply tell me and I will implement it.

[Kagemusha]

That's a very good point. In order to implement this, I will include options such as:

(X) The nearby Franconian castle of X is not currently governed. You can use your authority as a Swabian Count to enlist some of their regiments into your own army. They will join you, greatly increasing your strength, but making the Franconian castle vulnerable.

Again, my 'option' list will not be definitive. If you want to do something (like stabbing a neighbouring House in the back) that I have not listed, simply tell me and I will implement it.

How about an idea which would make this possible permanently. Lets call it Imperial reform. Currently we have Dukes and houses that are determined by the family tree. How about if we would free the characters to join any house? Also maybe there could be Imperial counts. Il try make some sense how this would work. Basically the reform could return all the current settlements back to Kaiser, except maybe the Ducal capitals and Jerusalem, which would be left to the Dukes and King of Outremer. Then based on their contributions towards the Kaiser, Dukes could get settlements from Kaiser and offer them to any characters thus gaining supporters. Kaiser could also give settlements to his trusted men straight, thus creating Imperial counts that would be ofcourse in dept to Kaiser and should follow his policies. Both Kaiser and Dukes should have the power to take the countship away. This could create a situation where the Houses and Kaisers party would be based on same politics, rather then family tree. I think this could turn the political aspect of the game pretty much. Also it would strengthen the Kaiser´s role very much. The houses would turn unbalanced in their power,based on the politics of the Duke´s, also Kaiser could basicly decide how much power he would give to Dukes, which depending on his politics, could turn certain Dukes to Kaiser´s lapdogs or even more powerful then him.
What do you guys think about that kind of idea?

EDIT: Also to continue the idea. We could start electing the Kaiser like it was done many times in HRE. This would no doubt give boost to the internal struggle also.

[Tamur]

I think this sort of reorganisation will be inevitable in the aftermath of whatever is going to happen.

We're obviously going to lose a number of territories (perhaps even ducal capitals?) and it would be surprising to have it turn out that all houses are equal at the end. And who knows, perhaps there will be major losses of avatars, etc? Keeping exactly the same structure as currently may not make sense given that.

However, I do think that these sorts of changes should be regulated by the Diet at the time the world stabilises. I do like the idea Kagemusha.

[Privateerkev]

From where we're standing right now, I am against reforming the patronage system for the rest of the game. I rather we wait till the next game to figure that out.

Having said that, Tamur is right in pointing out that we might have a totally different situation after the 10 year cataclysm. At that point, it may be more practical to reform some things. But, I rather we figure that out IC afterwards and not OOC beforehand.

[Kagemusha]

From where we're standing right now, I am against reforming the patronage system for the rest of the game. I rather we wait till the next game to figure that out.

Having said that, Tamur is right in pointing out that we might have a totally different situation after the 10 year cataclysm. At that point, it may be more practical to reform some things. But, I rather we figure that out IC afterwards and not OOC beforehand.

Well i think that it will only turn back the same after a while. If we start now thinking about the next game at this point,we might aswell end this one. I want for this to be a thrill to the end. And it seems bit boring if the only means towards that goal are artificial bumbs on the road until the end of the game.

[RoadKill]

Second, every game turn will use a modified system of the battle-list postings that Chancellors have been making in the OOC thread for some time. This will include the current status of each avatar in the game, a brief description of the challenges they find themselves in, and a short multiple choice description of possible actions. These multiple choice descriptions will not be definitive by any means, they will merely provide examples of options that are open to you. For example:

Johnny von Hindenburg:
You are the Count of Pfarphenplatz. The city is rioting and half of the garrison has been killed or deserted. You have two groups of knights with you and a large Polish army is nearby. There is no way to hire mercenaries or recruit new garrison units.

(A) Garrison Pfarphenplatz with your knights and attempt to restore order and hold the city.
(B) Ride to Pfarphenplatz and rescue the garrison before they are overwhelmed, then attempt to flee to the safety of Somewhatnearbyville. This will slow you down and you may be caught in the field by the Polish army.
(C) Abandon Pfarphenplatz and ride immediately for Somewhatnearbyville.


People may tell me they want to follow one of these paths or give a path of their own. If a person gives me no information for a particular turn, I will always choose the path that I deem to be best for keeping them alive. If an avatar's situation has not changed much from before, I will likely not give any info on them or simply write a "Proceeding as before" type note. Please note that since I cannot find a way to control the enemy AI, I will sometimes artificially create battles for you. Thus, if in the above example you chose (B) but the AI did not attack you and I want it to, I will move the Polish army near you and have you attack it. Even though the battle will be setup as you attacking, it will be roleplayed as a defensive battle and you will still have to fight it.

Also, the results of every action will not be guaranteed. If you chose (B) you could be attacked in the field, but you could also get lucky and escape without a battle. If you chose (A) you could be successful and restore order, perhaps opening up a new possibility to recruit one new garrison regiment. On the otherhand, you could fail to restore order, and rioting could continue, resulting in the destruction of a further garrison regiment and one of your knight regiments. I will be using a combination of factors to determine the results, including your character traits (i.e. avatars with "popular" traits will have a better chance at restoring order than ones with "unpopular" traits), the arrangement of the armies and the Reich, and my own imagination. I am even toying with the idea of actually rolling a die to determine the result (i.e. "unpopular" avatar succeeds in restoring order on a 1 or 2 on a d6. "popular" avatar suceeds in restoring order on a 1 to 4 on a d6). econ21 did something similar to this with the WOTS Civil War battles and it was excellent.

Finally, the last area will be Chancellor's reports. These will be the only real interaction Lothar has with the game. I will summarize any previous events of significance not covered by the previous areas here. This will also be where Lothar's decisions about how to allocate resources will be made. I do not anticipate there being many resources available to allocate for the majority of the event, so the decisions Lothar has to make will likely be minimal and infrequent. I want to concentrate mainly on the story (the first section) and the 'choose your own adventure' style actions for the players (the second section) rather than a traditional Chancellorship.

Please marry me Tincow, I love your ideas.

[Stig]

Even tho I like the idea of people changing houses it may be dangerous, what if Karl Zirn leaves Austria? No more kids for it.

[Northnovas]

Even tho I like the idea of people changing houses it may be dangerous, what if Karl Zirn leaves Austria? No more kids for it.

Never, I can't it's somehow in my blood. Never been there but it is...

[Ignoramus]

Perhaps also we could make it "first come, first served" regarding rebellious provinces. Throw away the Kaiser's right to assign provinces and instead make it that whichever House take a settlement keeps it. That knock down the geographical assigning of the provinces.

[RoadKill]

A good way for the player to select how he wants his story to run is to, make the player be able to lower his loyal (if he wants to) slowly and slowly till his loyalty is really low, then the avatar can go gather other revolting generals and demand the downfall of king or something along the lines of that.

[AussieGiant]

In real time what is the likely start point for all this.