Balance in Kingdoms - myth or reality

[Guru]

This kind of balance discussion should never be based on stats only. How would you like a Tartar cavalry unit with 12 attack? With the charge bonus this cheap, medium cavalry unit could take down pretty much everything. How about good spearmen with an attack of 7? Who would take them seriously? Stats never tell the whole truth. Ever heard of "animation"? (Sorry, I just had to say that...) To me their stats seem pretty balanced. If you find it "unacceptable" just mod the game.

- Guru

[zaher]

May be someone from ascended, those, who know the "real" balance and stats, will tell me truth about units, so i will be able adjust it to my actual gameplay? So, you say:" dont beleve in what you see in game". Lol. Mod it? Lol. The secret mass of horse riders?Lol. Bye, bye, TW.

[FactionHeir]

My belief is that the current "new balance" is making cavalry quite a bit worse than it should be.
From running a test, late general's bodyguards (i.e. plate horses and high attack + charge) couldn't even kill more than 2 spearmen head-on.

While I understand speamen are anti cavalry, they are supposed to kill a few horses on impact more than other units rather than not lose a single man basically against very-heavy cavalry. Afterall, that mass of plated horse crashing into a mass of men (in addition to a late era lance) will definitely take a lot more with them than it does now.

A better balance would be a middle ground between inbalanced post-shieldfix 1.2 units and the new balance, but tilted more towards the old balance.

[CountMRVHS]

Bye, bye Zaher!


Seriously, stats are nice but in-game performance is a different issue. Always has been with TW games. Lower-stat units will sometimes outperform others in an actual battle, due to all kinds of factors that can't easily or reasonably be put on a unit's info card. You can't just look at the numbers and then scream about the injustice of it all.

Oh, wait. I guess you can.

[Guru]

May be someone from ascended, those, who know the "real" balance and stats, will tell me truth about units, so i will be able adjust it to my actual gameplay? So, you say:" dont beleve in what you see in game". Lol. Mod it? Lol. The secret mass of horse riders?Lol. Bye, bye, TW.

What is your point? You post a thread claiming that Kingdoms is unbalanced because of the different stats of mounted and dismounted units. It's ok, an opinion like any other. People reply and present opinions why the stats might be the way they are. Yet you reply to those replies with unnecessary irony, or even mockery, one might say.
How does this statistic unbalance affect gameplay after all? Are spearmen overpowered? Is cavalry underpowered? So far you have only presented screenshots of unit cards. That proves little about balance on battlefield because there are so many factors. Due to this I can't really see what is the problem. If you'd be so kind and explain how this unbalance is apparent on the battlemap, and without irony this time if I may ask.

- Guru

[Shahed]

I think what zaher means is that cavalry is underpowered.

[zaher]

I think what zaher means is that cavalry is underpowered.

And are absolutely right.


"What is your point? You post a thread claiming that Kingdoms is unbalanced because of the different stats of mounted and dismounted units. It's ok, an opinion like any other. People reply and present opinions why the stats might be the way they are. Yet you reply to those replies with unnecessary irony, or even mockery, one might say.
How does this statistic unbalance affect gameplay after all? Are spearmen overpowered? Is cavalry underpowered? So far you have only presented screenshots of unit cards. That proves little about balance on battlefield because there are so many factors. Due to this I can't really see what is the problem. If you'd be so kind and explain how this unbalance is apparent on the battlemap, and without irony this time if I may ask."
- Guru


I dont really see what was a problem in original MTW2 after patch 1.2 ...
You can read my whinings in another thread below. I am not concurent company espionage expert to have a facts of game hidden or codded from me. And everyday i find something new, and ppl telling me: "its ok", "its a mass", "theese are not actual statistics", "your cavalry will die because of missile fire, but if it reach it can charge". I think that cavalry in MTW2 just wasnt acted honestly, it killed peasants, some was charging without orders, and some was able to keep their line until charge, so, now, they kinda getting therapy like a hero of "Clockwork Orange" had.


After all, some changes overall in game are good ( i am talking about money balance, i like, that i never have useless stacks of armies and other strategic changes ).

[joe4iz]

In game experience for me has not really proved or disproved unit balance. Certain tactics still apply. I've had calvery charge into the rear of an enemy stack and take out 2/3 of the units in the initial charge. I can't recall that happening in vanilla.

Just an opinion.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

Zaher i can send you the money you paid for kingdoms if you're so unhappy mate

[Guru]

I wouldn't say cavalry is underpowered. I played some custom battles (VH, medium unit sizes). 21 general's bodyguards (late, teutonic) against 76 Novgorodian spearmen (Armour upgraded to heavy mail) - heavy cavalry charging braced spearmen in schiltron (sp?) formation. The bodyguards had no problems wasting those spearmen and lost only 4-7 men. I admit having charged a few times but that's what you do in most battles anyway? Swordsmen still seem to beat spearmen; 60 armoured swordsmen (english) beat 75 order spearmen (teutonic). Both have partial plate, spearmen have a bit better stats and 15 soldiers more. It was almost a draw though.
In my campaign as New Spain one unit of conquistadores ended up with over 350 kills plus loads of prisoners. Most of the kills came from frontal charges against braced native formations. The conquistadores lost only 3-4 men in the process. The Americas campaign clearly favours cavalry; the natives lack proper spearmen and conquitadores have 2 hp. Bodyguards 3hp!
I haven't been playing Kingdoms very much yet but I think like current balance. (or unbalance )

- Guru

[TB666]

This kind of balance discussion should never be based on stats only.

Yeah, with M2TW in general there is more to a unit then their stats.

Overall Kingdoms is balanced, a few tweaks here and there would be nice of course but compared to the M2TW 1.0 it's alot more balanced.

[Gaius Terentius Varro]

In M2TW i could send a single generals bodyguard against 2 units archers and 2 units of cheap spears defending a town square and win 9 times out of 10. In kingdoms i would get eaten 9 times out of 10 so something has changed bad or good to early to tell new animations changed stuff.