No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[econ21]

There wasn't any CA resistance to making the VI v2.01 patch, but there was Activision resistance. In fact, Activision refused to pay for the patch, so the CA programmers made the patch after hours on their own time. I can't envision the current incarnation of CA making a patch on their own time without pay.

Nor should they be expected to. CA is not a two men and dog outfit anymore - after RTW, the series is presumably making good money and should be properly funded. If I were in CA, I would not be volunteering to do it without pay, but making the case to the high ups which as you say is required (the volunteering would undermine the case). I am hoping they will succeed with the case for a Kingdoms patch, but I'd be surprised if they do with one for M2TW.

But I think you are doing something of a disservice to the present CA staff. Lusted's done - and I think is doing - a lot of pro bono work as a modder and another CA staffer produced the retrofit mod for M2TW since it was decided not to rebalance it to the Kingdoms standard.

[TinCow]

Posts have now been deleted from this thread twice. I will not give any more warnings. Further CA bashing or personal attacks will result in a locked thread.

Please keep your comments polite and constructive. Thank you.

[absents]

And yet more silencing of dissent. Sad that such behavior has spread here as well.

[TinCow]

Your posts were insults, not dissent. There are plenty of other posts in this thread which are heavily critical of CA that have not been touched. Those posts have been made in a mature and constructive manner. Your posts have been insulting, lacking in any constructive content, and useful only for creating flame wars.

Welcome to the Org. We do not permit trolls. Enjoy your stay.

[Jack Lusted]

Edit - OK, so after thinking about this a minute, I'll pose a question to CA. If you're going to ignore petitions, what format would you listen to then? Forum threads? Only posts in certain venues, like the .com forums? Preemptively, suggestions that involve us doing things individually are totally unacceptable, we are collectively a whole and will act as such, so do not try to divide us. In other words, something like "send an email feedback" or "call such and such a hotline" is not acceptable.

I would say your best bet would be threads like this, threads which grow to a lot of pages and show how strongly the community feels about an issue are the best way to draw our attention. As we read all the fansites we can gauge the general community feeling on an issue this way.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

With that in mind let me say that if a substantive patch for MTWII and Kingdoms comes out I will reconsider my position on not purchasing Kingdoms. SecuRom is (Pulling no punches) a vile and purposeless thing to inflict on your customers, but a company that follows fan discussions and considers them deserves some consideration in return.

The SecuRom issue is a complete non-starter for me. I have neither the time nor frankly the desire to endure the process of removing it myself. If CA were to patch the game to remove SecuRom upon uninstallation of the game I would consider buying Kingdoms. I would probably decide against it even then, however, because I don't want that thing on my machine at all.

[hrvojej]

Just pointing out the obvious isn't going to work anymore. Witness the load/save bug of RTW. After that was discovered by a player and verified by other players, CA insisted that the game was intentionally designed that way. Obviously, they knew about this all along and never said anything. Only after a great deal of public outcry, in spite of the topic being banned from discussion at .com, did CA back down and change load/save to retain the state of the game when saving. When the players who care that the game works properly are up against that kind of resistance from the company there really isn't much hope of getting things fixed up let alone maintaining the quality of the tactical simulation or having the strategic game be something more than a huge number of clicks to an inevitable conclusion.

True. The discovery and subsequent treatment of the load/save bug in RTW was what made me leave, as it simply felt pointless to even argue that something that serious just has to be fixed.

Reading those old VI threads surely brings back memories of a somewhat different age.

[SpencerH]

Its amazing to me to see how the attitudes of "old hands" have changed over the years with each successive TW disappointment. The whole situation is just sad.

[Papewaio]

Maybe I am just getting old and used to a more leisurely pace of life, but the gap between VIs release and the patch announcement (a couple of months) does not seem that egregiously long. The final patch release did get held up in testing etc, but CA themselves were not happy with that.

It was a significant amount of time that when it was released there were no more copies of VI to be found on the shelves so I never bought a copy. And I really wanted to play the Welsh.

This in turn made me delay buying Rome until I saw that all the major issues had been resolved. Meaning that I when I did get it, it was half price (and hard to find too)... actually I think it was a Valentine present from the wife as I was still umming and arring if to get it.

I didn't bother with Alexander, and I can't remember what motivated me to get BI. I do know that I ended up playing the Dawn of War demo more then the Rome TW titles.

M2TW I was about to get when I heard poor reviews of Kingdoms (both gameplay and bugs) so I haven't got either.

My favourite game at the moment is Dwarf Fortress. When I get time that is.

=][= BTW were suicidal generals an issue in M2TW or Kingdoms... they had to be patched out in every other iteration of TW.

[Tafferboy]

I would say your best bet would be threads like this, threads which grow to a lot of pages and show how strongly the community feels about an issue are the best way to draw our attention. As we read all the fansites we can gauge the general community feeling on an issue this way.

It disgusts me that we have to ask for further support for M2TW/Kingdoms in the first place. I am sure CA are well aware themselves of the buggy and unfinished state their products are in. The worst part is it reflects very poorly on CA's responsibility and credibility as a developer when they promise features in their product that are broken, make money out of them, and then need evidence of customers' dissatisfaction in online communities before they would even consider fixing them. Sure seems to me CA couldn't care less with us customers because after all they got our money, and are only becoming concerned with this issue because the negative publicity potentially threatens the sales of their next unfinished release.

[caravel]

It disgusts me that we have to ask for further support for M2TW/Kingdoms in the first place. I am sure CA are well aware themselves of the buggy and unfinished state their products are in. The worst part is it reflects very poorly on CA's responsibility and credibility as a developer when they promise features in their product that are broken, make money out of them, and then need evidence of customers' dissatisfaction in online communities before they would even consider fixing them. Sure seems to me CA couldn't care less with us customers because after all they got our money, and are only becoming concerned with this issue because the negative publicity potentially threatens the sales of their next unfinished release.

Unfortunately after MTW/VI (some might say that signs of this first appeared in STW/MI) the Total War genre has radically changed direction and aimed for a younger and generally more diverse market. This entailed a general "dumbing down" of the product at tactical battle level, removal of the risk campaign map and it's replacement with the familiar tiled movement points based one (greater complexity at strategic level to capture the huge Civ/AoE market that CA had previously been left out of), addition of arcade battle mode, RTS camera, unlockable factions and other bells and whistles. Since CA can now sell to a wider consumer base, they are no longer restricted to supplying the needs of the type of gamer that frequents the .org. That is, those that are worried by game balancing issues and bugs that some might see as minor, are clearly no longer assumed to be a significant part of the consumer base, and are as such probably not given any kind of priority.

[econ21]

Apologies for going off topic, but anyway...

=][= BTW were suicidal generals an issue in M2TW or Kingdoms... they had to be patched out in every other iteration of TW.

I think they are less of a problem than in RTW, where it is still not unheard of for the AI to start the battle by hurtling its general at your lines.

In M2TW field battles, the general tends to hang back at the very beginning, but sooner or later gets stuck in. Not really suicidal generals, but reckless generals. On one level, it is understandable as TW generals have always been very powerful units that - early in the campaign -can swing a battle, as any STW vet knows. But I'd prefer more them to be more evasive and stay out of combat longer/more often.

While defending bridges and attacking in sieges recently, I have been disappointed that the AI launched its general into the battle very early on. In those situations - where there is usually a very narrow chokepoint for the combat - the general really should be kept out of the killing zone.

[caravel]

Apologies for going off topic, but anyway...



I think they are less of a problem than in RTW, where it is still not unheard of for the AI to start the battle by hurtling its general at your lines.

In M2TW field battles, the general tends to hang back at the very beginning, but sooner or later gets stuck in. Not really suicidal generals, but reckless generals. On one level, it is understandable as TW generals have always been very powerful units that - early in the campaign -can swing a battle, as any STW vet knows. But I'd prefer more them to be more evasive and stay out of combat longer/more often.

While defending bridges and attacking in sieges recently, I have been disappointed that the AI launched its general into the battle very early on. In those situations - where there is usually a very narrow chokepoint for the combat - the general really should be kept out of the killing zone.

I agree, suicide generals have always been a problem, certainly in STW and also in MTW where bodyguard units were small and all too often led from the front. Their death would see morale utterly disintegrate, which is acceptable, though they were far to easily picked off right at the beginning of a battle.

With RTW this was never fully resolved as one would expect. The preferred (cheap and dirty) solution was to simply give generals two hit points to increase their survival rate. I find that this doesn't really help and turns the unit into a suicidal juggernaut that is overused by the AI in pitched battles, typically scores the most kills in any battle and is finally, and inevitably, overhwhelmed and killed. In RTW the general does hang back for a while, especially in sieges, but in pitched battles still gets involved too early and in the wrong areas of the battle.

Also the problem with the general hanging back is that he is not close enough to postively affect the morale of the troops or charge in and try to rally when their morale is plummeting. In many siege battles I have destroyed the enemy force entirely and then seen the generals unit a good way out from the city turn around and withdraw, on other occasions I have been able to sally a few units out to deal with him after wiping out his army. IMHO this is not a good example of an even half decent AI. To simply keep the general out of arrowshot of the walls seems like the quick and easy way out. After all the AI units really need all the morale boost they can get when assaulting a city.

The strategy map has it's issues with the handling of generals also. Instead of stacking a general with an army, they are often to found wandering about alone while "captains" tend to lead big AI stacks. This wasn't really an issue in MTW as an army in a province fought under the best general available or the king if present.

If this has dramatically improved in M2TW then I'd be rather impressed.

[Rhedd]

I would say your best bet would be threads like this, threads which grow to a lot of pages and show how strongly the community feels about an issue are the best way to draw our attention. As we read all the fansites we can gauge the general community feeling on an issue this way.

This is me, helping make this thread grow to "a lot of pages".

Not releasing even a single patch for a broken product is a new low in game support. (And that's quite an accomplishment!)

I'm assuming that it's the "suits" at fault, here, but whoever it is, figure out who needs sense slapped into them and start aslappin'!

I enjoy Kingdoms a lot, but I had to spend a day of MY time fixing confirmed bugs, and there are some I simply can't fix. Not gameplay tweaks to make me happy, but obvious bugs.

I hope I sounded properly outraged, since outrage is supposedly something that motivates a new patch.

Oh, and it's nice to see you posting again, Lusted. I was worried you'd fallen into the professional pit of no return. ^_^

[hrvojej]

I would say your best bet would be threads like this, threads which grow to a lot of pages and show how strongly the community feels about an issue are the best way to draw our attention. As we read all the fansites we can gauge the general community feeling on an issue this way.

You read all the fansites, and can gauge the general community feeling on issues, yet you didn't anticipate releasing another patch for either M2TW or Kingdoms? You weren't able to gauge how the community feels about certain bugs/troublesome issues that remain in the original game/grand campaign, and that's why 1.3 patch did nothing to remedy them? If this is the case, then the only sensible explanation is the one I proposed earlier in this thread....

[hrvojej]

Just for the record:
While absents's latest post was perhaps not entirely on topic, I don't think that it should have been deleted.

[Noir]

Originally posted by econ21
Patching M2TW seems more of a lost hope and it is disappointing to me that this was not updated with Kingdoms - as previous core games were with their expansions.

I agree with econ21 - a patch for Kingdoms is very well needed and yet - leaving M2 as is and not updated with the expansion is what's really dissapointing.

Heh - in the past as it has been mentioned the publisher or lack of resources have been blamed for the lack of patches - yet now, persuasion with multipage threads is "required" in order for CA to even start considering a patch for basic issues - not to make gameplay/playbalance improvements (heaven forbids!) - but just to make the game working as intended - despite the fact that the series now sells quite well - or is it exactly because of that?

In all probability it seems that numbers actually do matter here since its advised that multipage threads are the best bet, so correctness and importance of argument regarding bugs are not really the issue but rather how many people are actually bothered (have noticed the bugs? ) about having a game that works properly.

Those that come back from the past to shower with irony whoever "still hangs on" - seem to have a point - CA doesn't really need anymore a dedicated fanbase it seems, they just probably decided to "live with it it"

The ghost majority the games are aimed for now, fills the numbers apparently anyway.

Whatever they do in terms of support nowdays no matter how low compared with what they did in the past or what they "should" be doing, feels like a move of "bona fede" i guess, just so there isn't enough noise to really affect sales and perhaps even a bit for "old time's sake"

Sometimes i seriously wish that i'd have never bought STW.

Noir

[TinCow]

Just for the record:
While absents's latest post was perhaps not entirely on topic, I don't think that it should have been deleted.

The post included a personal attack and had nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Further actions on absents are pending. Please keep this thread on-topic.

[Puzz3D]

If I were in CA, I would not be volunteering to do it without pay, but making the case to the high ups which as you say is required (the volunteering would undermine the case).

They had already made their case to Activision without success that "all kings die at 56 years of age" should be fixed. Volunteering to do it got the v2.01 patch made. If they hadn't volunteered there would have been no v2.01 patch.

But I think you are doing something of a disservice to the present CA staff. Lusted's done - and I think is doing - a lot of pro bono work as a modder and another CA staffer produced the retrofit mod for M2TW since it was decided not to rebalance it to the Kingdoms standard.

Those aren't code changes, and can't correct the underlying problems. For example, look at the impossible situation faced by the person trying to balance RTW tactical battles with the shield bug and reversed charge bug present. The underlying algorithms have to be correct or else people like Lusted are defeated before they start.

[IceTorque]

Not too long after M2 was released, I decided not to post here at the org anymore, because I felt the mods were too quick to close threads like this one. Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain. I felt the need to add my 2 cents worth, and am now thinking that the heavy handed censorship of negative threads is the reason why we don't get "No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms".

M2 still has many bugs, and still needs quite a bit of optimisation as far as unit cohesion and AI are concerned. Not to mention the unspecified errors causing a CTD. The community has taken the time to make buglists that have simply been ignored by CA/Sega.

The decision not to support the game after patch 1.2 is an absolute shame, and will lose more customers than those few who take the time to post their opinions would suggest. I think most gamers who dislike certain gameplay features or just buggy software in general don't even bother to complain, they just don't buy anymore products from that company. Which is what I do with all other games, except of course TW.

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago. CA/Sega sold us all a cheap mod, dressed up as an expansion, this alone is an outrage, and they deserve to be dragged over the coals for this fact alone, not just for refusing to support their product. If they would have tried this with their previous games the community would have been up in arms. The absence of a call to arms indicates to me that most long time fans have already given up on TW and moved on.

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs? The heavy handed (don't scare away the devs) moderation, corporate greed, lack of manpower or all of the above. Whatever the reason(s) the lack of support and the cheapskate xpac leave a sour taste in my mouth, I won't say i'll never buy another CA/Sega game, but I will say if I do it will be a very long time after that games initial release before I even consider doing so.

[Jack Lusted]

Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain.

That is not what i was saying. Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions, that is what i was responding to. Please do not take my words out of context or to say things they don't. I was just saying what the best way to bring any issue that is very important to the community to our attention, not just specifically this one.

[FactionHeir]

That is not what i was saying. Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions, that is what i was responding to. Please do not take my words out of context or to say things they don't. I was just saying what the best way to bring any issue that is very important to the community to our attention, not just specifically this one.

By the way, judging from the number of posts and views of the buglist, will that ever be fixed?

One thing I am rather curious about is why CA will not listen to petitions but rather to forum threads with large numbers of posters/posts. Both are in a way the same I think.

[alpaca]

By the way, judging from the number of posts and views of the buglist, will that ever be fixed?

One thing I am rather curious about is why CA will not listen to petitions but rather to forum threads with large numbers of posters/posts. Both are in a way the same I think.

It is a lot easier to just reply to a post with a "I sign" message than writing a detailed post which means that people can do it without a lot of fuss. That's the whole point of petitions, to make the petitioners as little work as possible.

For CA (or probably a lot of companies) I guess the reasoning goes like: "If they can't be bothered to write detailed posts explaining their problem, it's not too important to them, therefore we can get away with ignoring them"
The thing is that with petitions there's a very small percentage of people who will actually take steps if CA doesn't heed it, whereas with such a thread you can see that some people already claimed they wouldn't buy another game from CA/SEGA in the near future (including myself), and they did it in a way that is a lot more credible than a random petition you can sign with two words...

[frogbeastegg]

IMO the worst thing about this entire series was the old one patch policy.

Again IMO, the best thing Sega brought to the series was the death of this policy.

As I write my Kingdoms guides for the official site I'm having to leave sections with "This is currently bugged but if it is fixed in the future it should ..." Credit must be given that those sections are not edited out before the guide is put up for download. I hate having to write them, and was originally doing so in the belief that one day those sections would benefit players because the issues would be addressed.

It would be a shame of the greatest sort of I were wrong on both counts.

[Puzz3D]

Not too long after M2 was released, I decided not to post here at the org anymore, because I felt the mods were too quick to close threads like this one. Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain. I felt the need to add my 2 cents worth, and am now thinking that the heavy handed censorship of negative threads is the reason why we don't get "No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms".

The org has to be careful not to go too far because Creative Assembly will take legal action against them.

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago.

Good point, and this is probably why they didn't anticipate any problems with Kingdoms. Unfortunately, CA has demonstrated time and time again that the debugging method they use on initial releases fails to catch many problems. The number of bugs in RTW v1.0 was staggering, and the readme for the RTW v1.2 patch doesn't list all that was fixed. This is where the community and the community based beta teams used for patch testing were very helpful in bringing the game up to a more finished level. CA went away from using community based beta teams to hiring a single experienced player to help identify problems, but it hasn't worked out as well eventhough he is there working before the v1.0 release.

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs?

I think it's the decision to move away from the niche market to the broad market.

IMO the worst thing about this entire series was the old one patch policy.
Again IMO, the best thing Sega brought to the series was the death of this policy.

That was an improvement with RTW getting v1.2, v1.3 and v1.5 patches, but apparently was a failed experiment since SEGA has now gone away from that policy. The RTW v1.2 community beta team put in a strong request for a subsequent v1.3 patch. It was still quite a while before approval for a v1.3 was granted, and I don't know what it was that eventually resulted in the go ahead on a v1.3. It may have been the discovery by a player of the non-reversal of the cav charge bonus when cav charged into the front of a phalanx plus the Parthian shot not working. Despite all those patches, RTW was still left with some known bugs, but it's in a much better state than if it had never gotten those patches. It's important for the sake of mods to get all the bugs ironed out of the game otherwise much of the modding effort is wasted effort. Imagine EB running off of v1.2 instead of v1.6. I can tell you that if RTW was still at v1.2, I wouldn't be helping with the Ran no Jidai mod.

[econ21]

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago.

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions. It is more substantial than MI and VI. BI was more attractive to me, because of the scale. But I don't think you can accuse CA of producing a cheap expansion - producing those four campaigns probably took a lot of work. (As did rebalancing the combat.)

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs? The heavy handed (don't scare away the devs) moderation, corporate greed, lack of manpower or all of the above.

The answer is obvious - it is the heavy handed Org moderators who are to blame.

[Odin]

The answer is obvious - it is the heavy handed Org moderators who are to blame.

Finally, we are cutting through all the manusha and getting to the real problem.

Considering Jack lusted said that petitions dont really work, and that message board posts are what they look at, and he is posting here, it would seem the message has gotten through to someone who has influence on the process.

Perhaps a step back from the venom might be in order, while I still advocate the concept of conumers taking repsonsibility and not purchasing at release, I think the angles of this issue have been well represented if not exhausted.

[Puzz3D]

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

Code divergence can't be the issue. Kingdoms started with the M2TW battle engine code, so all that has to be done is to apply the same changes to the M2TW battle engine. What CA obviously considered to be too much work was rebalancing and debugging it. This is the bind you get into when you are still fixing battle engine mechanics in the expansion a year after initial release and the deadline to end-of-life the product is approaching.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions.

That's because you aren't particularly concerned with battle mechanics. In all the previous games, improvements to the battle engine were incorporated into the main game.

[Empress_Zoe]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...337#post406337

Kraxis himself posted:

Oh, I could hardly agree more.

But we have to take CA's word on this and expect a small patch that does little but fix the 56 bug. Such a fix does NOT mean the game will be fine and clean, it means it has been done because they noticed we were complaining, not because they found it to be something they could not accept. Again I have to bring in Blizzard, they release patches that fix things I never even knew was there... They are dedicated to the games they have sent out, using a lot of strength to keep them running and making them better.

I normally don't complain that much, but it is surprising that, what is supposed to be a minor patch takes so long (remember they were at it before they told us). It has soon taken the same time as the big patch for MTW. That in itself could be a good pointer that it might be a big patch.

Just as a little history reminder for those who are a little....sleepy



https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=25030

The actual great thread in all its glory, in case anyone wanted to see it. Those were the days...

[Puzz3D]

Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions,...

Of course you don't. Lots of signatures on an organized petition makes CA look bad. After the RTW petition, The Shogun announced that CA would no longer consider petitions, and the org moderators blocked futher attempts of players to organize petitions.

RTW multiplayer patch petition org signers, 22Oct2004, (this petiton picked up more signatures at .com):

1 [cF]Adherbal
2 [cF]Maharbal
3 [FF]Tyrone
4 [FF]Anniep
5 [FF]Blackpanther
6 [FF]Crandaeolon
7 [FF]Darkhalf
8 [FF]Gustavus2
9 [FF]Hammer
10 [FF]Hobbes
11 [FF]Louis-St-Simurgh
12 [FF]mIcK
13 [FF]n3xt
14 [FF]Nopileos
15 [FF]Phoenix
16 [FF]Sequence.7
17 [FF]Sir_Killalot
18 [FF]Tempiic
19 [FF]Will
20 [LEGIO] VII CLAUDIA
21 [LEGIO]Alex
22 [LEGIO]Angelius
23 [LEGIO]capago64
24 [LEGIO]Cheros
25 [LEGIO]DIX
26 [LEGIO]Dracula
27 [LEGIO]Edi
28 [LEGIO]Emperor
29 [LEGIO]fenix legion
30 [LEGIO]Flea
31 [LEGIO]Franied
32 [LEGIO]Highlander
33 [LEGIO]Kiedis
34 [LEGIO]Lord Feanor
35 [LEGIO]Lordthefenix
36 [LEGIO]Lucio Decimocis Cospuccio
37 [LEGIO]musketeer
38 [LEGIO]PILUM
39 [LEGIO]Pompeo il Magno
40 [LEGIO]Primigenia
41 [LEGIO]Silvanus
42 [LEGIO]TITUS AUGUSTUS
43 [LEGIO]XXI Rapax
44 [LEGIO]XXX ULPIA
45 [LEGIO]XXX ULPIA
46 [UoY]Acidd_UK
47 [UoY]Mr.Tinkles
48 [VDM]Troys
49 [VDM]Xenophon
50 {DC}Fire
51 {DC}Fire
52 {DC}PIG_yobaboink
53 {DC}PIG_yobaboink
54 {DC}Player
55 {DC}Player
56 {DC}Rider
57 {DC}Rider
58 {DC}Shade
59 {DC}Shade
60 {LORE}Chimpyang
61 {LORE}Maximus Aurelius
62 {LORE}Maximus Aurelius
63 {LORE}Monk
64 {LORE}Quid
65 {ME}_Bramsi
66 {ME}Oselly
67 {Pendragon}Achille
68 {Pendragon}Bastard
69 {Pendragon}Cid Campeador
70 {Pendragon}Crash
71 {Pendragon}Cynh
72 {Pendragon}DGMerlin
73 {Pendragon}Dmlolo
74 {Pendragon}Droit-de-cuissage
75 {Pendragon}Free
76 {Pendragon}Jibbs
77 {Pendragon}Le Duc
78 {Pendragon}Maarek
79 {Pendragon}Moonshine
80 {Pendragon}Philou
81 {Pendragon}Wallace
82 {Pendragon}Widukind
83 {Pendragon}Willcourt
84 {Raven}Crfyder
85 {TL}Lord Fubar
86 {TL}Lord Kenlee
87 {TL}Lord Krutz
88 {TL}Lord MegaMatt
89 {TL}Lord Okoru
90 {TL}Lord Wiskey
91 {TL}Lord_Lonewarrior
92 1dread1lahll
93 1master1hymir
94 7Bear7Clips
95 7Bear7Grizzly
96 7Bear7Kuma
97 7Bear7Saxon
98 7Bear7Scar
99 7Bear7Tooth
100 7Bear7Yogi
101 7Bear7Yoyoma
102 Ae2
103 AggonyDuck
104 AggonyRaven
105 Ah_dut
106 AK_SG
107 Almircar
108 Ambassador Sacrifice
109 Antek
110 AoM_Azrael
111 AoM_Horus
112 Apollonius
113 ArmaEtLorica_Arbi
114 ArmaEtLorica_Diackon
115 ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
116 ArmaEtLorica_Vandershot
117 Arnaud
118 Asterix909
119 B@njer
120 Bachus
121 Balamir
122 Barrakud
123 Bitchi
124 Boudicca
125 CanCritter
126 Carlos
127 Carrasca
128 CeltiberoAcre
129 CeltiberoAlba
130 Celt¡beroAlioven
131 CeltiberoAmebo
132 CeltiberoBichoco
133 CeltiberoCapi
134 Celt¡beroCid
135 CeltiberoEmbirrado
136 CeltiberoEpG
137 CeltiberoFigueroa
138 CeltiberoFrog
139 CeltiberoFurase
140 CeltiberoIdibil
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142 CeltiberoJuanjo
143 CeltiberoKarmipoka
144 CeltiberoKoln
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150 Celt¡beroMencey
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154 Celt¡beroSkullXIII
155 Celt¡beroSubur
156 CeltiberoVirio
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159 CeltiberoZuri
160 CelticFalcon
161 ChaosAchilles
162 Cheetah
163 Chris
164 CitizenDrifta
165 Colovion
166 Cort
167 CrackedAxe
168 CrazyHorse
169 Crusty_Ator
170 Cyndre
171 D6veteran
172 D6Veteran
173 Deadpool
174 DegtYarev14.5
175 DonGarcia
176 DoragonBarocca
177 DoragonGeisha
178 DoragonGregoshi
179 Dunhill
180 Dux of Earl
181 ELITEoFarfane
182 ELITEofBavaria
183 ELITEofBill
184 ELITEofBismarck
185 ELITEofBLIZZARD
186 ELITEofBomilkar
187 ELITEofBoon
188 ELITEofBuddy
189 ELITEofCreb
190 ELITEofDschingis
191 ELITEofFarfane
192 ELITEofFogolin
193 ELITEofGazoz
194 ELITEofJERICHOPRIME
195 ELITEofKYL
196 ELITEofLoki
197 ELITEofMARCAUREL
198 ELITEofOrkus
199 ELITEofRage
200 ELITEofRedchaos
201 ELITEofSpartanian
202 ELITEofWheatus
203 ELITEoIfmperator
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205 Ender1101
206 Estivi
207 Excalibur_Primordial
208 Falconne
209 FearAMP
210 FearHector
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212 FearYoussof
213 FearZeus
214 Felix Iuvenis Invictus
215 Folgore Jimi
216 frogbeastegg
217 GoldenKnightX2
218 Gordio
219 Greek_Warrior_Gwc
220 Hach
221 Hades
222 Hamhock2
223 Hatefulemperor17
224 Hedon
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226 HighFistRW
227 HM Assassin
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229 HM Oswald
230 HM Pathfinder
231 Hunter Devastator
232 Hunter El Rey Santos
233 Hunter Hikaru
234 Hunter King George
235 Hunter_RedDragon
236 IceTorque
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238 Ignacio
239 Indortes
240 InsaneApache
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242 InsaneHighlander
243 InsaneHorse
244 InsaneMarauder
245 IPainI_King
246 Irish Fenian
247 Ivar
248 Jacin1
249 Jango Fett
250 Jollyroger
251 Kalle
252 Kanamori
253 Kas
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255 Kenchi_AsajiShimazu
256 Kenchi_Baz
257 Kenchi_Malekith
258 Kenchi_Mordred
259 Kenchi_Nem
260 Kenchi_Romero
261 Kenchi_Shaka
262 Kenchi_Skomatth
263 Kenchi_Subadai
264 Kenchi_Tera
265 Kenchi_TGI
266 Kenchi_TheWitchKing
267 Kenchi_Tib
268 KenchiSullasan
269 Khaldaz
270 Komonit
271 KotrSirGreyFox
272 Krasturak
273 Krusader
274 l33t
275 Lechev
276 Legatus Maximus
277 LegioXGemina Antoninus
278 LegioXGemina Romulus
279 LegioXGemina Vespasian
280 LegioXGemina Vitus
281 Liblap
282 Londinium
283 LORE}Chimpyang
284 LRossa Caesar
285 LRossa Duca
286 LRossaCiliegio
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288 LRossaCrux
289 LRossaDOCmatte
290 LRossaFalco
291 LrossaJubo
292 LrossaLordChoj
293 LRossaMauri
294 LRossaPedroneCommodo
295 LRossaRaubal
296 LRossaRikimaru
297 LRossaTerrore
298 LRossaTraiano
299 LrossaVinsitor
300 LrossaWwwolf
301 LuminousSun
302 MAGO_V
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351 Maximus Decimus Meridias
352 Merlin271
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361 MK_Crusader
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365 Monkey Kid
366 Necro-Chu
367 Nick123
368 Nigel
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371 PanzerJager
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373 ParthianWarrior
374 Paul Morris
375 PFJ_bejazuz
376 PFJ_darkknight
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386 Phoinix_Javal
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388 Phoinix_Lord
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398 PorT_Kojima
399 PorT_Lobo
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432 Sid_Quibley
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435 Smaug82
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446 TenjoMercutio
447 TenjoMuneyoshi
448 TenjoRathanseril
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450 TenjoScipio
451 The Hun
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463 Urdriel
464 VDM_Alexandros
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467 Vorcid
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474 WarlordFutuwwa
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479 WarlordMinkus
480 WarlordShacron
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487 Wolf_Grizzly
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495 Wolf_Paolai
496 Wolf_Space
497 XXI RAPAX Cipius
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499 XXI RAPAX Zeus
500 XXI_RAPAX_Aetius
501 XXI_RAPAX_Augustus
502 XXI_RAPAX_Brutus
503 XXI_RAPAX_Caius
504 XXI_RAPAX_Cronos
505 XXI_RAPAX_Scipio
506 XXI_RAPAX_Tiberium