No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[pevergreen]

There are very few companies that seem to actually follow up with customer service patches and support - namely Blizzard, which I credit their success with their continuous support/patches of their games.

Really, I think CA has potential to be a megamonster in the industry by their own rights, they just don't play up to it for some unknown reason - probably involves money and in-group politics.

They still patch Warcraft 3 even though they dont need to. Subtle Balances. That dedication (and the huge tournaments that still go on for it) is beautiful.

[Prodigal]

Dunno about this, I'm more of a "does it run" player, if it does that's enough for me. Sure there are bugs but nothing that crashes out of the game & that's pretty much good enough for me.

Since stw I've played every TW game to death & beyond, and that amounts to alot of enjoyable hours killing & being killed.

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

[FactionHeir]

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

It will still come out unfinished though, so I don't quite understand your point

[rvg]

CA has just lost a customer. Me.

[Zoring]

Shame really considering how i have to fight armies made up of literally nothing but Artillery and Millitia Crossbowmen in my Teutonic campaigns and pikemen which are still really really really broken in the ass.

[Stuie]

Well at least they pushed me off the fence as to whether or not I should buy Kingdoms.

[Zenicetus]

Well, to be fair... I think many of the things we'd like to see fixed, like the strategic and battle AI, are actually major game engine redesign issues. That's not the kind of thing we'd see in a patch. What they'd been doing lately are mostly band-aid fixes, like giving the AI factions more money to boost the challenge in Kingdoms, and tweaking the stat balance. Both of those options are available by modding the vanilla game even without a patch.

Yes, it would have been nice to see one more patch to fix whatever minor things they could still tweak without rebuilding the AI. But since it wouldn't be a major rebuild, we'd still be griping about "poor AI". Hopefully we'll be getting more of the changes we really want in ETW since they're doing a major rebuild of the AI, and I'd rather see them spend maximum effort on that.

I'm more angry at CA/Sega for the SecureRom thing (the reason I won't buy Kingdoms) than the lack of a final patch. I can still manage to have some fun with M2TW, using house rules to get the level of challenge I want.

[Prodigal]

It will still come out unfinished though, so I don't quite understand your point

Was looking at it from the position that "it does what it says on the packet"

Issues such as suicidal generals, ranged melee etc. can be construed as simply game balance, not an outright bugs.

But, I've just been reading that during the Teuton campaign the alliance between Danes & Nowegians does not allow you to use the unique units, and that, no matter how you look at it is a 100% pure gold bug which needs to be fixed.

I can't see how they can simply omit a whole freaking feature from a quater of the product and expect customers to smile happily and go about their buisiness.

[lancelot]

Dunno about this, I'm more of a "does it run" player, if it does that's enough for me. Sure there are bugs but nothing that crashes out of the game & that's pretty much good enough for me.

Since stw I've played every TW game to death & beyond, and that amounts to alot of enjoyable hours killing & being killed.

Thing is that I can really only play these games for just so long, (essentially until I've exhausted every faction & all the different things I can think of to do). Based on this I'm happier knowing that CA's resources are being put into the development of the next release, rather than tweaking the current game.

Dont take this as a personal attack but do you enjoy buying stuff that is half-broken? because that is what you are doing.

And more to the point, its not about how serious the bugs are or are not, rather that CA is laughing at us (or rather- you) for being suckered into buying an unfinished product and/or getting away with not fixing said product before they abandon it to get more money out of a fresh new bunch of suckers...

Tweaking is what you do when you have a bug free game and play around with it. Most people are asking for fixes, which is a whole different ball game.

[Csargo]

I can't say I'm surprised by this, but I'm hopeful that ETW will be better. Though I won't be surprised if it isn't.

[SenseiTW]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

[sapi]

Thanks for the update.

I doubt many of the serious issues with the current engine could be fixed in a patch, at any rate.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Thank you for the update. Is there a chance that they will remove SecuRom while they are at this?

[alpaca]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

This is not aimed directly at you Mark and I want you to know I'm usually pretty civil in my comments and lately defended you guys who come visit the forums and actually talk to us (breaking the self-imposed silence of your management which I'm thankful for) but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.
I know that you probably can't really talk about it freely, but make your chief read this.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

[FactionHeir]

I think Odin and alpaca have brought up another valid point.

How can the development time be over by the time you just released an expansion pack already? IMHO there should be support for both the game and the expansion pack, but at least the expansion should gain additional support for at least the same amount of time the main game has and not be shelved the moment it is released, which is what seems to have happened.

To say it bluntly, while you may have anticipated that a patch would not fix all the issues optimally, you could have put all these hardcode fixes on the expansion to make it more than just another simple mod to M2TW. This would also have raised the number of buyers I am sure (if of course you had not opted for SecuROM either).

It is unfortunate that Total War is being run into the ground like this, really, but if you think its SEGA limiting you, you probably should be choosing another publisher.
Alternatively, as alpaca suggested, fire the persons responsible for project management and Q&A, because they really do not deserve to work on this title.

[edyzmedieval]

but this is not an understatement, it's an insult.

Jeez you can't expect me to believe this junk. I am sure that the management knew about a lot of these issues. The Kalmar Union not working is not something you can overlook if you try it even once (judging from what I hear anyways). They just decided that they don't care because people will buy it anyways. Then they decided that they wouldn't need a patch afterwards because simply put, you already have our money.
If what you say was true and you "didn't anticipate the few issues that came up with kingdoms" you should seriously fire your project manager in down under as soon as possible because he's definitely not up to the job.

This is the last drop, I won't buy another game from CA until I am 100% convinced that this totally arrogant and disparaging company policy changed. A lot of us aren't stupid you know, so don't try to sell us bullshit as truffle-pâté
And I hope some more people from the community will arrive at similar conclusions about buying Empires.

Ditto. Insulting CA, VERY insulting.
That seals it. Kingdoms is the last TW title I have bought. Empire:TW, bye bye!

[Daveybaby]

Thanks for the heads up.

...and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release... at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

Firstly I do find it incomprehensible that there was no contingency set aside for a patch to kingdoms. IIRC every TW release to date has required at least one patch, so the decision not to plan for one for kingdoms is frankly baffling. In fact can't think of any strategy game (going back to the civ/moo days) of any kind of complexity that didnt require patching - there is so much stuff that can only get noticed once you have thousands of people playing the game repeatedly.

Secondly I, for one, think that the need to patch kingdoms is actually secondary to the need for a further patch for the main campaign - the game just doesnt provide any kind of a challenge for an even halfway competent player, even on the hardest difficulty. While i will concede that rewriting the strategic AI is off the cards, it would be nice to at least make the AI offer some kind of challenge by fixing its invariably bad economy - even if all you do is give it financial bonuses on hard and very hard.

Go on - just sneak a few config variables in there for us to play with:
ai_econ_bonus_easy 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_normal 1.0
ai_econ_bonus_hard 1.5
ai_econ_bonus_vhard 2.0

We wont tell anyone. Promise.

[TosaInu]

What about the mp community that gets fragmented with every version and mod that tries to introduce balance?

Hello,

Not sure whether I understood this and something in a follow up correctly.
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players (is there -STW-M2TW-? absolute or relative?).

I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

[Slug For A Butt]

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

Does this insinuate that you get X time to work on a piece of software, and after X time is up the software gets released whether it is ready for release or not? Also, that starting work on a new project takes precedence over correcting the issues prevalent in the existing software, purely because you have pre-scheduled your programmers without verifying the integrity of their work?
If this is the case as you seem to insinuate, I feel vindicated in my decision to no longer blindly buy TW games on release as I always used to. Kingdoms will probably be a second hand buy as will all my games in the TW series since the M2TW debacle.
This is NOT CA bashing, this is me reading between the lines and stating my feelings.
It is such a shame as no other game stirred me in the same way as the TW series.

[candelarius]

Hi guys,

First of all apologies for the delay in a response on this. We have been working behind the scenes and talking to the CA OZ development team about the situation but I wanted to be clearer on where things are before posting.

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

We are however listening to your concerns, examining the issues in question and are currently looking into ways to support you to the fullest extent with the resources at our disposal.

Thanks,

Mark O'Connell
(aka SenseiTW)

Thanks for a written reply to our concerns, but, you still didn't answer if you plan on making a patch for Kingdoms or not. How about commissioning Unspoken Knight to release another one-dev unofficial patch? I'd be happy with that...or how about a "hotfix" to solve the major issues? Finally, the "resources at your disposal" were willfully misallocated...you should have planned on at least one patch for Kingdoms, and should have at least some people who are not working on new projects to fix the existing ones. Please consult with the Higher Ups, and advise them that making new games is nice, but, nobody will buy them if they stop supporting their games properly.

[Noir]

Originally posted by TosaInu
Mods are not a bad thing for the MP community and are not responsible for a decline in MP players

Hi Tosa,
i meant that mods aiming for the mp community can never replace a fully workable and balanced vanilla game; it is my undersatnding that a solid, bug-free working vanilla game may offer the best in that department from an mp point of view including the fact that it will probably contribute in the potential for modding.

I agree that the vanilla needs to be solid, especially the (battle)engine and all that is around that. Mods for MP that offer something new, and decent support for that are good (sure you may get people going right while others go left, but I'm also convinced that MP mods will attract more people and avoid others just leave).

A load of MP mods that just try to fix vanilla (and fail because of hardcoded restrictions) are not good.

Agreed and exactly how i meant it.

Originally posted by Odin
If your not intrested in the industry or its trends then this conversation is pointless, and so is your particpation, because we are commenting on a trend in the gaming industry.

Not really IMO. Modding is without arguing a good thing - depending on modding to fix basic issues on new releases and leave them without taking them up to a certain level cannot be good IMHO though either. If you or anyone else wishes to accept this because of the context the gaming industry opertates then fine - yet, i compare current TW releases with older TW releases and with the potential the TW game conceptually and otherwise has for good gameplay. Solving basic bug issues with patches cannot ever be substituted by workarounds done by modders IMO.

For example you mention balacing of units in your post - yet the new animations make balancing more difficult because altering the balance is not based on the stats alone anymore. LTC fixes some issues not all issues by workarounds and it was in my understanding the model for the rebalancing in Kingdoms - well done to Lusted and all others that were involved as i noted elsewhere.

Where we disagree is that you seem to suggest that mods should be taken for granted instead of patching support as a policy from the developers while i suggest that they should patch the games either by adopting fixes and balance from certain mods or otherwise in, however official patches.

A major reason for this is that the majority of people who buy the game do not frequent forums and do not even know that mods exist - it is unfair to them to say the least. Another major reason is that mods can't work around all hardcoded limitations and there are plenty to my understanding.

Noir

[Stuie]

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release.

Oh come on! Name one game or expansion you guys have released that did not require a patch. Thinking that there wouldn't be any issues with the software upon public release is just crazy.

Any decent development house would plan for some level of support after a release.

[Veresov]

I have to say after reading all the posts that the majority of you posters have been extremely naive. CA has never supported its products adequately and has been blowing smoke by blaming the game publishers, deadlines, and ofcourse the "suits". Remember Activision and how everything was their fault and how much better things would be under Sega? Seriously, if there was an honest intent to support any of their games, there would be support. Its that simple.

Expect more of the same with 'Empire'. It will have loads of eye candy but as always will be at the expense of gameplay.

[Tafferboy]

Each of our titles has a scheduled development time on which we can work on them, and we did not anticipate the few issues that surfaced with Kingdoms after release. The Oz team have since begun work on a new project, which is why a previous post stated that at the present time there are no scheduled updates in the pipeline for Kingdoms.

So, I take it there was never any intention to support the game any further once it was released since that's considered past "schedule" and all resources became committed elsewhere. Considering their own track record for previous games, it is unbelievable how staff can say they "anticipate no issues" for this one. As in m2tw, I wonder how some of the bugs even made it past testing or if CA chose to ignore them thinking they could get away with it. Advertising features like Khalmar union and Welsh reinforcements in the game, using them as selling points, and then refusing to fix the broken features is sheer arrogance and highly insulting to customers who paid to see them included. And to date, of course, not a damned word on Securom. The company has lost all credibility with me.

[crpcarrot]

i agree wholeheartedly with what whacker and odin and others are sayings.

it is only the consumers dollers that will change anything unfortunately for us who look for long term enjoyment of a game and take immense enjoyment from minute details ( V&V in MTW) the games consumer base seems to be have a majority of casual gamers who will have moved on to the next game so quickly that they will only notice the most glaring bugs. and unfortunately TW now seemes to be geared towards this market.

although i would have stilled bought kingdoms even without the support just to play ltc 4 (at the right price) securom was where my line was drawn. i dont spend money and time keeping my pc free of unwanted software (malicious or not is not the issue) for someone to install one so he can prevent me from copying?playing a game i already have! and o top of that if i dont want to play the game anymore i cant install it! doesnt make sense to me

[fallen851]

So happy I didn't buy M2TW. RTW was enough to turn me away. Now I get to play EB though!

[redriver]

I always knew RTW was their last greatest product.. it's the only TW game me ever purchased/played anyway. and I'm not regretin' it :P

[IrishArmenian]

Disappointing, I was hoping for some bug fixes and maybe the building files.