No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms (update: Kingdoms patch announced)

[hrvojej]

Just for the record:
While absents's latest post was perhaps not entirely on topic, I don't think that it should have been deleted.

[TinCow]

Just for the record:
While absents's latest post was perhaps not entirely on topic, I don't think that it should have been deleted.

The post included a personal attack and had nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. Further actions on absents are pending. Please keep this thread on-topic.

[IceTorque]

Not too long after M2 was released, I decided not to post here at the org anymore, because I felt the mods were too quick to close threads like this one. Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain. I felt the need to add my 2 cents worth, and am now thinking that the heavy handed censorship of negative threads is the reason why we don't get "No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms".

M2 still has many bugs, and still needs quite a bit of optimisation as far as unit cohesion and AI are concerned. Not to mention the unspecified errors causing a CTD. The community has taken the time to make buglists that have simply been ignored by CA/Sega.

The decision not to support the game after patch 1.2 is an absolute shame, and will lose more customers than those few who take the time to post their opinions would suggest. I think most gamers who dislike certain gameplay features or just buggy software in general don't even bother to complain, they just don't buy anymore products from that company. Which is what I do with all other games, except of course TW.

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago. CA/Sega sold us all a cheap mod, dressed up as an expansion, this alone is an outrage, and they deserve to be dragged over the coals for this fact alone, not just for refusing to support their product. If they would have tried this with their previous games the community would have been up in arms. The absence of a call to arms indicates to me that most long time fans have already given up on TW and moved on.

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs? The heavy handed (don't scare away the devs) moderation, corporate greed, lack of manpower or all of the above. Whatever the reason(s) the lack of support and the cheapskate xpac leave a sour taste in my mouth, I won't say i'll never buy another CA/Sega game, but I will say if I do it will be a very long time after that games initial release before I even consider doing so.

[Jack Lusted]

Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain.

That is not what i was saying. Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions, that is what i was responding to. Please do not take my words out of context or to say things they don't. I was just saying what the best way to bring any issue that is very important to the community to our attention, not just specifically this one.

[FactionHeir]

That is not what i was saying. Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions, that is what i was responding to. Please do not take my words out of context or to say things they don't. I was just saying what the best way to bring any issue that is very important to the community to our attention, not just specifically this one.

By the way, judging from the number of posts and views of the buglist, will that ever be fixed?

One thing I am rather curious about is why CA will not listen to petitions but rather to forum threads with large numbers of posters/posts. Both are in a way the same I think.

[alpaca]

By the way, judging from the number of posts and views of the buglist, will that ever be fixed?

One thing I am rather curious about is why CA will not listen to petitions but rather to forum threads with large numbers of posters/posts. Both are in a way the same I think.

It is a lot easier to just reply to a post with a "I sign" message than writing a detailed post which means that people can do it without a lot of fuss. That's the whole point of petitions, to make the petitioners as little work as possible.

For CA (or probably a lot of companies) I guess the reasoning goes like: "If they can't be bothered to write detailed posts explaining their problem, it's not too important to them, therefore we can get away with ignoring them"
The thing is that with petitions there's a very small percentage of people who will actually take steps if CA doesn't heed it, whereas with such a thread you can see that some people already claimed they wouldn't buy another game from CA/SEGA in the near future (including myself), and they did it in a way that is a lot more credible than a random petition you can sign with two words...

[frogbeastegg]

IMO the worst thing about this entire series was the old one patch policy.

Again IMO, the best thing Sega brought to the series was the death of this policy.

As I write my Kingdoms guides for the official site I'm having to leave sections with "This is currently bugged but if it is fixed in the future it should ..." Credit must be given that those sections are not edited out before the guide is put up for download. I hate having to write them, and was originally doing so in the belief that one day those sections would benefit players because the issues would be addressed.

It would be a shame of the greatest sort of I were wrong on both counts.

[Puzz3D]

Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions,...

Of course you don't. Lots of signatures on an organized petition makes CA look bad. After the RTW petition, The Shogun announced that CA would no longer consider petitions, and the org moderators blocked futher attempts of players to organize petitions.

RTW multiplayer patch petition org signers, 22Oct2004, (this petiton picked up more signatures at .com):

1 [cF]Adherbal
2 [cF]Maharbal
3 [FF]Tyrone
4 [FF]Anniep
5 [FF]Blackpanther
6 [FF]Crandaeolon
7 [FF]Darkhalf
8 [FF]Gustavus2
9 [FF]Hammer
10 [FF]Hobbes
11 [FF]Louis-St-Simurgh
12 [FF]mIcK
13 [FF]n3xt
14 [FF]Nopileos
15 [FF]Phoenix
16 [FF]Sequence.7
17 [FF]Sir_Killalot
18 [FF]Tempiic
19 [FF]Will
20 [LEGIO] VII CLAUDIA
21 [LEGIO]Alex
22 [LEGIO]Angelius
23 [LEGIO]capago64
24 [LEGIO]Cheros
25 [LEGIO]DIX
26 [LEGIO]Dracula
27 [LEGIO]Edi
28 [LEGIO]Emperor
29 [LEGIO]fenix legion
30 [LEGIO]Flea
31 [LEGIO]Franied
32 [LEGIO]Highlander
33 [LEGIO]Kiedis
34 [LEGIO]Lord Feanor
35 [LEGIO]Lordthefenix
36 [LEGIO]Lucio Decimocis Cospuccio
37 [LEGIO]musketeer
38 [LEGIO]PILUM
39 [LEGIO]Pompeo il Magno
40 [LEGIO]Primigenia
41 [LEGIO]Silvanus
42 [LEGIO]TITUS AUGUSTUS
43 [LEGIO]XXI Rapax
44 [LEGIO]XXX ULPIA
45 [LEGIO]XXX ULPIA
46 [UoY]Acidd_UK
47 [UoY]Mr.Tinkles
48 [VDM]Troys
49 [VDM]Xenophon
50 {DC}Fire
51 {DC}Fire
52 {DC}PIG_yobaboink
53 {DC}PIG_yobaboink
54 {DC}Player
55 {DC}Player
56 {DC}Rider
57 {DC}Rider
58 {DC}Shade
59 {DC}Shade
60 {LORE}Chimpyang
61 {LORE}Maximus Aurelius
62 {LORE}Maximus Aurelius
63 {LORE}Monk
64 {LORE}Quid
65 {ME}_Bramsi
66 {ME}Oselly
67 {Pendragon}Achille
68 {Pendragon}Bastard
69 {Pendragon}Cid Campeador
70 {Pendragon}Crash
71 {Pendragon}Cynh
72 {Pendragon}DGMerlin
73 {Pendragon}Dmlolo
74 {Pendragon}Droit-de-cuissage
75 {Pendragon}Free
76 {Pendragon}Jibbs
77 {Pendragon}Le Duc
78 {Pendragon}Maarek
79 {Pendragon}Moonshine
80 {Pendragon}Philou
81 {Pendragon}Wallace
82 {Pendragon}Widukind
83 {Pendragon}Willcourt
84 {Raven}Crfyder
85 {TL}Lord Fubar
86 {TL}Lord Kenlee
87 {TL}Lord Krutz
88 {TL}Lord MegaMatt
89 {TL}Lord Okoru
90 {TL}Lord Wiskey
91 {TL}Lord_Lonewarrior
92 1dread1lahll
93 1master1hymir
94 7Bear7Clips
95 7Bear7Grizzly
96 7Bear7Kuma
97 7Bear7Saxon
98 7Bear7Scar
99 7Bear7Tooth
100 7Bear7Yogi
101 7Bear7Yoyoma
102 Ae2
103 AggonyDuck
104 AggonyRaven
105 Ah_dut
106 AK_SG
107 Almircar
108 Ambassador Sacrifice
109 Antek
110 AoM_Azrael
111 AoM_Horus
112 Apollonius
113 ArmaEtLorica_Arbi
114 ArmaEtLorica_Diackon
115 ArmaEtLorica_Mongoclint
116 ArmaEtLorica_Vandershot
117 Arnaud
118 Asterix909
119 B@njer
120 Bachus
121 Balamir
122 Barrakud
123 Bitchi
124 Boudicca
125 CanCritter
126 Carlos
127 Carrasca
128 CeltiberoAcre
129 CeltiberoAlba
130 Celt¡beroAlioven
131 CeltiberoAmebo
132 CeltiberoBichoco
133 CeltiberoCapi
134 Celt¡beroCid
135 CeltiberoEmbirrado
136 CeltiberoEpG
137 CeltiberoFigueroa
138 CeltiberoFrog
139 CeltiberoFurase
140 CeltiberoIdibil
141 CeltiberoIhatsu
142 CeltiberoJuanjo
143 CeltiberoKarmipoka
144 CeltiberoKoln
145 CeltiberoLaertes
146 CeltiberoLerend
147 CeltiberoLion
148 CeltiberoLoky
149 Celt¡beroMandonio
150 Celt¡beroMencey
151 CeltiberoMordred
152 CeltiberoMori
153 CeltiberoMutilador
154 Celt¡beroSkullXIII
155 Celt¡beroSubur
156 CeltiberoVirio
157 CeltiberoVito
158 CeltiberoWallace
159 CeltiberoZuri
160 CelticFalcon
161 ChaosAchilles
162 Cheetah
163 Chris
164 CitizenDrifta
165 Colovion
166 Cort
167 CrackedAxe
168 CrazyHorse
169 Crusty_Ator
170 Cyndre
171 D6veteran
172 D6Veteran
173 Deadpool
174 DegtYarev14.5
175 DonGarcia
176 DoragonBarocca
177 DoragonGeisha
178 DoragonGregoshi
179 Dunhill
180 Dux of Earl
181 ELITEoFarfane
182 ELITEofBavaria
183 ELITEofBill
184 ELITEofBismarck
185 ELITEofBLIZZARD
186 ELITEofBomilkar
187 ELITEofBoon
188 ELITEofBuddy
189 ELITEofCreb
190 ELITEofDschingis
191 ELITEofFarfane
192 ELITEofFogolin
193 ELITEofGazoz
194 ELITEofJERICHOPRIME
195 ELITEofKYL
196 ELITEofLoki
197 ELITEofMARCAUREL
198 ELITEofOrkus
199 ELITEofRage
200 ELITEofRedchaos
201 ELITEofSpartanian
202 ELITEofWheatus
203 ELITEoIfmperator
204 Emix
205 Ender1101
206 Estivi
207 Excalibur_Primordial
208 Falconne
209 FearAMP
210 FearHector
211 FearofCromwell
212 FearYoussof
213 FearZeus
214 Felix Iuvenis Invictus
215 Folgore Jimi
216 frogbeastegg
217 GoldenKnightX2
218 Gordio
219 Greek_Warrior_Gwc
220 Hach
221 Hades
222 Hamhock2
223 Hatefulemperor17
224 Hedon
225 Helliax
226 HighFistRW
227 HM Assassin
228 HM Cowman
229 HM Oswald
230 HM Pathfinder
231 Hunter Devastator
232 Hunter El Rey Santos
233 Hunter Hikaru
234 Hunter King George
235 Hunter_RedDragon
236 IceTorque
237 Ichi
238 Ignacio
239 Indortes
240 InsaneApache
241 InsaneGnomeSlayer
242 InsaneHighlander
243 InsaneHorse
244 InsaneMarauder
245 IPainI_King
246 Irish Fenian
247 Ivar
248 Jacin1
249 Jango Fett
250 Jollyroger
251 Kalle
252 Kanamori
253 Kas
254 Kenchi_Andy
255 Kenchi_AsajiShimazu
256 Kenchi_Baz
257 Kenchi_Malekith
258 Kenchi_Mordred
259 Kenchi_Nem
260 Kenchi_Romero
261 Kenchi_Shaka
262 Kenchi_Skomatth
263 Kenchi_Subadai
264 Kenchi_Tera
265 Kenchi_TGI
266 Kenchi_TheWitchKing
267 Kenchi_Tib
268 KenchiSullasan
269 Khaldaz
270 Komonit
271 KotrSirGreyFox
272 Krasturak
273 Krusader
274 l33t
275 Lechev
276 Legatus Maximus
277 LegioXGemina Antoninus
278 LegioXGemina Romulus
279 LegioXGemina Vespasian
280 LegioXGemina Vitus
281 Liblap
282 Londinium
283 LORE}Chimpyang
284 LRossa Caesar
285 LRossa Duca
286 LRossaCiliegio
287 LRossaCily
288 LRossaCrux
289 LRossaDOCmatte
290 LRossaFalco
291 LrossaJubo
292 LrossaLordChoj
293 LRossaMauri
294 LRossaPedroneCommodo
295 LRossaRaubal
296 LRossaRikimaru
297 LRossaTerrore
298 LRossaTraiano
299 LrossaVinsitor
300 LrossaWwwolf
301 LuminousSun
302 MAGO_V
303 marechal[N]ANUBIS
304 marechal[N]BUCH
305 marechal[N]DAWAFRED
306 marechal[N]LANNES
307 marechal[N]LEGION
308 marechal[N]MAXIMUS
309 marechal[N]SPARDAMUS
310 marechal[N]TIGERTAT
311 marechal[N]TOVI
312 marechal[N]VERSEAUX
313 marechal[N]VYSE
314 marechalABC
315 marechalAKHENATON
316 marechalALBINUS
317 marechalALCAZAR
318 marechalATONE
319 marechalCID
320 marechalCLEMENT
321 marechalDROW
322 marechalEURINYS
323 marechalFERRANT
324 marechalFINROD
325 marechalFRED
326 marechalHERVE
327 marechalHINDENBURG
328 marechalKEYMAR
329 marechalKIETENSEI
330 marechalLAFAYETTE
331 marechalMADMONKEY
332 marechalMARIUS
333 marechalOYONICOLAS
334 marechalPHILIPPE
335 marechalPOPE
336 marechalPROMETHE
337 marechalREBSAY
338 marechalREVEUR
339 marechalRICARD57
340 marechalRODOFF
341 marechalROILOIC
342 marechalROLEND
343 marechalROTTOR
344 marechalSCORPION
345 marechalTOINOUMOU
346 marechalTOTOREMITO
347 marechalVANMIA
348 marechalVERCINGETORIX
349 marechalVONPOPOP
350 marechalWERRA
351 Maximus Decimus Meridias
352 Merlin271
353 Merovech
354 Mitra
355 Mizu_Orda Khan
356 MizuCBR
357 MizuJochi Khan
358 MizuMarcus
359 MizuSp00n
360 MizuYuuki
361 MK_Crusader
362 MK_MadMick
363 MK_Ubica
364 MK_Znake
365 Monkey Kid
366 Necro-Chu
367 Nick123
368 Nigel
369 Nightplayer
370 Oldman44
371 PanzerJager
372 PaolinoPaperino
373 ParthianWarrior
374 Paul Morris
375 PFJ_bejazuz
376 PFJ_darkknight
377 PFJ_lancecaptain
378 PFJ_nethermancer
379 PFJ_opey
380 PFJ_scrofula
381 PFJ_span
382 PFJ_swarm
383 Phoinix_Corbelius
384 Phoinix_Costantin
385 Phoinix_Daevorn
386 Phoinix_Javal
387 Phoinix_KnightWilliam
388 Phoinix_Lord
389 Phoinix_Mas
390 Phoinix_Vecchio
391 Phoinix_Virus
392 Phoinix_Zen
393 Pitt_Slayer
394 PK Lone
395 PoderHispanoRasta
396 PorT_AsMaS
397 PorT_Big
398 PorT_Kojima
399 PorT_Lobo
400 PorT_LoSe
401 Pretoriano
402 Prometheus
403 Pvt.Magnum
404 Rademt
405 Rashis
406 RTK Aelwyn
407 RTK Antoine
408 RTK Galahad
409 RTK Marco
410 RTK Palamedes
411 RTK Saladin
412 RTKLamorak
413 RVNAlrowan
414 RVNKyl
415 Saint-Albin
416 Saint-Antonio
417 Saint-Cainite
418 Saint-German
419 Saint-Louis
420 Saint-Marc
421 Saint-Samart
422 Saint-Sted
423 Saint-Vitus
424 Sasaki Kojiro
425 SecureZ
426 Sgt. Rock
427 Sgt.Humbolt
428 Shagall
429 Shin-GaiJin
430 ShingenKryp
431 ShingenMitch
432 Sid_Quibley
433 Silva
434 Sinan
434 SIR TARTA [ITALY]
435 Smaug82
436 Sparkmaster4513
437 Spartacus
438 Squirrel_of_Hatred
439 Stormer
440 Superpolo Wolf
441 T1master
442 TenjoArthurWellsley
443 TenjoGlacier
444 TenjoHimeLady
445 TenjoKalle
446 TenjoMercutio
447 TenjoMuneyoshi
448 TenjoRathanseril
449 TenjoSatake
450 TenjoScipio
451 The Hun
452 The Redcoats
453 The_baby_jesus
454 Tomy Says
455 Treziak
456 Tribun
457 Trooper
458 TW_Raymond
459 UglyandHasty
460 UglyElmo
461 UglySoSo
462 Ugo il Magnifico
463 Urdriel
464 VDM_Alexandros
465 Veritas
466 voigtkampf
467 Vorcid
468 WarlordAlexander
469 WarlordArion
470 WarlordAust
471 WarlordDragonFly
472 WarlordElco
472 WarlordEnslaver
474 WarlordFutuwwa
474 WarlordHashishin
476 WarlordHiji
477 WarlordKropazz
478 WarlordLavos
479 WarlordMinkus
480 WarlordShacron
481 WarlordSizzler
482 WarlordZequbus
483 Whaco
484 Wolf_Aleborg
485 Wolf_Druid
486 Wolf_Fast
487 Wolf_Grizzly
488 Wolf_Kansuke
489 Wolf_Kanuni
490 Wolf_Kocmoc
491 Wolf_Kyolic
492 Wolf_MagyarKhan
493 Wolf_Mo
494 Wolf_Nashwan
495 Wolf_Paolai
496 Wolf_Space
497 XXI RAPAX Cipius
498 XXI RAPAX Spartaco
499 XXI RAPAX Zeus
500 XXI_RAPAX_Aetius
501 XXI_RAPAX_Augustus
502 XXI_RAPAX_Brutus
503 XXI_RAPAX_Caius
504 XXI_RAPAX_Cronos
505 XXI_RAPAX_Scipio
506 XXI_RAPAX_Tiberium

[Papewaio]

After the RTW petition, The Shogun announced that CA would no longer consider petitions, and the org moderators blocked futher attempts of players to organize petitions.

Not true. Me, myself and I started a petition on the thirty-first of May on the two thousand and sixth year of our lord AD.

I'm pretty sure that the year 2006 falls after 2004.

Petitions like anything else here are allowed if they remain civil.

It is the failure to meet expectations that makes people angry. Advertised features that are marketed and then not meet and refused to be patched is a ready way to fail to meet expectations.

[Puzz3D]

Not true. Me, myself and I started a petition on the thirty-first of May on the two thousand and sixth year of our lord AD.

I'm pretty sure that the year 2006 falls after 2004.

Petitions like anything else here are allowed if they remain civil.

Ok right. It was at .com that they were suppressed.

[Puzz3D]

Not too long after M2 was released, I decided not to post here at the org anymore, because I felt the mods were too quick to close threads like this one. Thanks to Jack Lusted's post suggesting that the only way we'll get a patch is if many of us complain. I felt the need to add my 2 cents worth, and am now thinking that the heavy handed censorship of negative threads is the reason why we don't get "No further patches for M2TW or Kingdoms".

The org has to be careful not to go too far because Creative Assembly will take legal action against them.

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago.

Good point, and this is probably why they didn't anticipate any problems with Kingdoms. Unfortunately, CA has demonstrated time and time again that the debugging method they use on initial releases fails to catch many problems. The number of bugs in RTW v1.0 was staggering, and the readme for the RTW v1.2 patch doesn't list all that was fixed. This is where the community and the community based beta teams used for patch testing were very helpful in bringing the game up to a more finished level. CA went away from using community based beta teams to hiring a single experienced player to help identify problems, but it hasn't worked out as well eventhough he is there working before the v1.0 release.

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs?

I think it's the decision to move away from the niche market to the broad market.

IMO the worst thing about this entire series was the old one patch policy.
Again IMO, the best thing Sega brought to the series was the death of this policy.

That was an improvement with RTW getting v1.2, v1.3 and v1.5 patches, but apparently was a failed experiment since SEGA has now gone away from that policy. The RTW v1.2 community beta team put in a strong request for a subsequent v1.3 patch. It was still quite a while before approval for a v1.3 was granted, and I don't know what it was that eventually resulted in the go ahead on a v1.3. It may have been the discovery by a player of the non-reversal of the cav charge bonus when cav charged into the front of a phalanx plus the Parthian shot not working. Despite all those patches, RTW was still left with some known bugs, but it's in a much better state than if it had never gotten those patches. It's important for the sake of mods to get all the bugs ironed out of the game otherwise much of the modding effort is wasted effort. Imagine EB running off of v1.2 instead of v1.6. I can tell you that if RTW was still at v1.2, I wouldn't be helping with the Ran no Jidai mod.

[econ21]

Kingdoms is not an expansion, it is just a mod. So, the decision not to touch the game code and risk the need for another patch was obviously made long ago.

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions. It is more substantial than MI and VI. BI was more attractive to me, because of the scale. But I don't think you can accuse CA of producing a cheap expansion - producing those four campaigns probably took a lot of work. (As did rebalancing the combat.)

So, who is responsible for this sad state of affairs? The heavy handed (don't scare away the devs) moderation, corporate greed, lack of manpower or all of the above.

The answer is obvious - it is the heavy handed Org moderators who are to blame.

[Odin]

The answer is obvious - it is the heavy handed Org moderators who are to blame.

Finally, we are cutting through all the manusha and getting to the real problem.

Considering Jack lusted said that petitions dont really work, and that message board posts are what they look at, and he is posting here, it would seem the message has gotten through to someone who has influence on the process.

Perhaps a step back from the venom might be in order, while I still advocate the concept of conumers taking repsonsibility and not purchasing at release, I think the angles of this issue have been well represented if not exhausted.

[Empress_Zoe]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...337#post406337

Kraxis himself posted:

Oh, I could hardly agree more.

But we have to take CA's word on this and expect a small patch that does little but fix the 56 bug. Such a fix does NOT mean the game will be fine and clean, it means it has been done because they noticed we were complaining, not because they found it to be something they could not accept. Again I have to bring in Blizzard, they release patches that fix things I never even knew was there... They are dedicated to the games they have sent out, using a lot of strength to keep them running and making them better.

I normally don't complain that much, but it is surprising that, what is supposed to be a minor patch takes so long (remember they were at it before they told us). It has soon taken the same time as the big patch for MTW. That in itself could be a good pointer that it might be a big patch.

Just as a little history reminder for those who are a little....sleepy



https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=25030

The actual great thread in all its glory, in case anyone wanted to see it. Those were the days...

[Puzz3D]

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

Code divergence can't be the issue. Kingdoms started with the M2TW battle engine code, so all that has to be done is to apply the same changes to the M2TW battle engine. What CA obviously considered to be too much work was rebalancing and debugging it. This is the bind you get into when you are still fixing battle engine mechanics in the expansion a year after initial release and the deadline to end-of-life the product is approaching.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions.

That's because you aren't particularly concerned with battle mechanics. In all the previous games, improvements to the battle engine were incorporated into the main game.

[Zenicetus]

Code divergence can't be the issue. Kingdoms started with the M2TW battle engine code, so all that has to be done is to apply the same changes to the M2TW battle engine. What CA obviously considered to be too much work was rebalancing and debugging it. This is the bind you get into when you are still fixing battle engine mechanics in the expansion a year after initial release and the deadline to end-of-life the product is approaching.


That's because you aren't particularly concerned with battle mechanics. In all the previous games, improvements to the battle engine were incorporated into the main game.

Well, not defending CA here.... but the last expansions before Kingdoms for M2TW were BI and Alexander for RTW. Both of those were non-overlapping in time period and unit types with the original game, so it didn't expose any issues with rebalancing the original RTW units or adjusting the AI.

I think that's where CA boxed themselves into a corner with Kingdoms. They released an expansion that covers the same time period and uses many of the same units as the original game. This inevitably begs for comparison with the original game, and people will (rightly) gripe about not extending those changes to the original game. This didn't happen with BI and Alexander; they only had to debug and playtest one game, not two.

The lesson there (IMO) is -- don't make an overlapping expansion, unless you're absolutely sure you have the resources to rebalance the original game at the same time. Otherwise it's best to take the non-overlapping approach that BI and Alexander did. Just my opinion.

[Whacker]

Respectfully to Odin and Ramses and others, petitions absolutely can and do work very well, when they are properly managed and executed. As for being "brute force", I'd somewhat disagree, as when they are done well they are powerful tools with elegant execution. Even then, sometimes "brute force" is what it takes to get a developer/publisher to move on an issue that would otherwise be ignored or dropped.

I think Puzz also said it best, and is what I truly suspect is the reason behind CA stating they won't listen; it makes them look very bad. Petitions also tend to draw quite a bit of the silent majority out of the woodwork as opposed to simple threads, which carry different weight and connotations. The other major issue that is key is that petitions and organized movements by gamers tend to be suppressed heavily. I'm not the least bit surprised that this happens at the .com, those are official forums and nothing can be said or done there that casts too much of a negative light on anything related to CA or the publishers. What does get annoying, as econ so pointed out, is when the modship at the Org and Twcenter gets too heavy handed towards legitimate forms of criticism, and efforts by the gamers with a genuine concern and good intentions that tend to get trashed by the fanboys, trolls, and paid shills. When the overall "mood" at the two major fan sites tends to take a dive, I'd think that'd be a telling message that CA and Sega would do well to heed. Further, while Puzz is right about CA possibly taking action against the Org and TWcenter, I think that would be a final "nail in the coffin" so to speak that would truly drive a very, very large chunk of their existing and possible future customer base away. A mod that I respect here once used the phrase in another thread that "CA bashing is a cancer that is eating away at the Org", to this I can only respond that I politely disagree. First I don't feel that what's occuring here is bashing at all, by and large the comments in this thread and others are well stated, delivered, and supported. Second, I think that the figurative "cancer", which I equate to the general dissatisfaction, is a symptom, not a cause.

I want nothing more than to have my good old TW games back, but I'm sick and tired of the dumbing-down mass-marketing ADD-appeasing path that the games have been taking, the shoddy support, major bugs, and lack of patching, and being treated like a criminal with facist DRM. The only way to get this message to CA is for those of us who are like minded to keep repeating our message until CA listens or we get tired/silenced, and vote with our wallets.

[IceTorque]

That is not what i was saying. Whacker was asking what the best way to bring thing to our attention would be as we do not like petitions, that is what i was responding to. Please do not take my words out of context or to say things they don't. I was just saying what the best way to bring any issue that is very important to the community to our attention, not just specifically this one.

My apologies, grats on your new job, and kudos for joining in this and other discussions.

I think it's the decision to move away from the niche market to the broad market.

Thats understandable and is necessary for bigger and better future TW games, but I think the average age for gamers is around 24 yrs old and getting older, I for one need more mature, realistic and challenging gameplay to keep me interested. My 12 yr old son tried RTW and immediately exploited the greek phalanx with his cavalry by simply circling them and charging in when they changed direction and raised their spears while doing so. He got bored very quickly and did'nt play it ever again.

He's 14 now and is a leet gamer, much quicker to find exploits and flaws in games than I. Imo if they want to attract a broader/younger customer base they really need to listen to the old hands on here because that is exactly what the younger gamers want too. i.e. they aint dumb and they need more than great graphics.

I doubt that is true. I thought the rationale for not patching M2TW to Kingdoms standard was because the code had diverged two much between the two products - it would be too much work.

I don't see much of a difference between Kingdoms and the earlier expansions. It is more substantial than MI and VI. BI was more attractive to me, because of the scale. But I don't think you can accuse CA of producing a cheap expansion - producing those four campaigns probably took a lot of work. (As did rebalancing the combat.).

I have a half finished mod for M2 that has a full size map (1021x1021) has Ireland, wales, norway, sweden, saxons and normans added. The mod is about half finished and took me about 4 weeks of my spare time roughly 100 hours work, and yes for me this was a lot of work, but for a professional game studio I think it would be relatively simple and not too difficult to produce those four small campaigns in Kingdoms. Though it was probably a very small team producing it, so yeah the poor buggers probably worked their rears off, and my cheapskate comments was certainly not directed at those that actually make the game, but to those bean counting suits that make these controversial decisions.

As far as the code being too diverged from the original. Well, this may be true, but I cannot discern any noticeable difference between M2 and Kingdoms as far as AI, cohesion etc are concerned. My main attraction to the xpacs was not so much the new content but more for the improvements and bug fixes to the original game.

The answer is obvious - it is the heavy handed Org moderators who are to blame.

Wow, you actually do have a sense of humour......now please go bang your head on the floor until you are forgiven