Favorite Units?

[sharpshooter]

Gosh, I've posted so much today. I've been really enjoying reading back through the threads and posting my bit to each, it seems. Pray don't think me a spammer - it won't always be like this. I couldn't resist adding something to this one, even though it seems everyone has had their say.

I was a little shocked at Caravel's remarks about JHI. I guess it's just from not using them. So they are a favourite unit, although really I find them too powerful. I think the discussion about under-rated units was more interesting.

Once the JHI appear in my Turkish army I know it's all over for everyone else. If I've come through from Early there will be a Master Armourer in Constantinople to help them along. Really, I do find them too powerful - so usually limit myself to 2 per army, unless its taking the Mongols head on in big numbers. I've used them on everyone - and chew up Halberdiers and CMAA with them.

Perhaps Caravel should try out this Turk army combination - 6 JHI, 3 Xbows, 2 THA (+2 from Tripoli), 2 TF (+2 from Anatolia), 2 AHC (+2 from Armenia) and one Ghulam BG General. Go head on against army you choose.

Position the THA wide and advanced, with the AHC behind them. (Scorpion is good for this, but leaves the missiles in the wrong place, so you have to bring them up before advancing - plus the JHI are too deeply formed. It's good to use as it is sometimes, though) Place the TF wide and advanced in front of the infantry lines, next the XBows centre and front, with the JHI behind them. Leave space between the Xbows for the JHI to come through.

First flank with the THA, with the AHC moving up behind them, and bring the foot up. If the enemy, as usual, brings missile units to the front keep the TF moving up while the Xbows start firing - the JHI should be still out of range. Then charge any enemy archers with the TF, followed by the JHI pointed at the enemy infantry and cavalry. If the TF engage with infantry withdraw them, and stop them just behind the action.

Don't give the enemy archers time to target the JHI with leisurely missile exchanges. Point one JHI unit at the RK king or general and keep them advancing. Use the THA, who should be flanked to be slightly behind the enemy line, to pursue routers, and clean up archers halted behind the infantry lines. When not busy they can fire at any available targets. The AHC, also flanked and behind, following the THA, will take any RKs or Arbs that have kept out of the action. Also use them to pursue, or to break heavy infantry that's engaged from the front with JHI. The Turk Xbows should now be behind everyone else, targeted at any non-engaged enemy units. Battles can be over in 5 minutes.

Like I say - too powerful really.

You may need to pause and micro manage a bit at first, keeping the THA from getting too entangled. With practice this is one oiled fluid attack that rolls over everything.

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I've just set this up as a Custom Battle, on Flatinland01, Arid, as described:

the French, all silver armour: 1 RK +3, 1 RK 0, 1 CK 0, 2 MS 1, 2 Halbs 0, 2 CS 1, 2 CMAA 0, 2 Archers 1, 3 PXBows 0 (no Arbs available... Hmm) - Cost 78,000
- that's better than any crusade army I've ever seen

Turks, all silver armour: 1 GB +3, 2 AHC +2, 2 THA +2, 2 TF +2, 3 XBows 0, 6 JHI 0 - Cost 75,000
- that's weaker than any Turk army that I'd have brought through from Early

The French immediately ran into the top right corner as I was setting up the Turks, as described - that took a little time. I positioned them while the French waited, then moved the whole army in front of the French with Ctrl A, and Alt on a lateral movement, fine tuning the placement one everyone was over.

I couldn't flank on the right as planned, due to the French in a corner. There I had to bring up a JHI as the French advanced a PavXBow then sent a CS chasing the Turk cavalry on the cramped right hand side. Engaging the CS with the JHI I moved the THA and AHC around behind them.

On the left the French advanced Archers and Halbs, and somehow a Halb found the AHC over there as I was repositioning them, so I let them fight, and charged them from the rear with the THA. I did that a few times. The other Halb advanced, in line with the French CMAA and CS coming forward.

Centre and left the Turk infantry advanced as described, with the JHI coming through the XBows to engage the advancing French CS and CMAA and other Halb. I had grouped them, and clicked behind the French line to advance them in line. The French CK charged in, while their missile units went behind. I attacked these with the THA and AHC now behind on the right, with the GB now threading through to do the same. The MS pushed through on the left, trying to get at the XBows and TF. Then the French general (RK Val 3) charged through the centre.

The battle was over in about 5 minutes.

Turks - killed 649, taken 314 - Men Lost 353. French routed, general killed.

The CMAA were simply shredded. The CS lasted a bit longer before fleeing. The Halbs did ok, but the centre one broke and ran, stopped, and was the last unit to flee in the end, fairly intact. The AHC and THA vs Halb battle lasted the longest, with the AHC losing half the unit before the Halb broke.

I did have to Pause more than usual, and lost most of a TF who was caught by an advancing CMAA. The JHI lost over a third of their numbers - 225 casualities. I would usually expect to do much better than this, and lose more like 60 - 100 max in such a high octane battle. I'm a bit out of practice, and this was rushed for demo purposes. (That's my excuse. Heh).

As I said, I grouped the remaining 5 JHI and clicked for them to move behind the French line. As a result they didn't charge, and the initial contact showed the CS, CMAA and CK winning their battles - but that soon changed - the JHI ate them. Ditto the Knights. The French simply collapsed.

I've saved the battle, and taken a screen shot ... if there's anywhere to put such things. Anyways, you can try this out for yourself, if you're interested. It's not personal Caravel - I'm just keen for you to see what an amazing unit the JHI are.

If I've bored anyone with this - sorry.

[caravel]

I was a little shocked at Caravel's remarks about JHI. I guess it's just from not using them. So they are a favourite unit, although really I find them too powerful. I think the discussion about under-rated units was more interesting.

Hmmm... how to get my point across regarding JHI...

Firstly I'm mainly an early period player, so I'm usually in a very strong position by the high period anyway and haven't needed JHI thus far. They can only be trained in one province in the vanilla game, that is the province with the Grand Mosque and Military Academy (unless you demolish the mosque and rebuild it etc). It takes quite a while to tech up to them also. Secondly they don't really fit my style of battle and the tactics I use. As the Turks my armies tend to be heavy with Saracen Infantry and skirmishers such as Futuwwa and Turcoman Foot, but cavalry such as AHC and Turcoman Horse make up the bulk of my forces. I like to have a very mobile force, and not one made up of heavy infantry units (this is probably what I meant by "slow", bad choice of wording on my part.). When the Janissaries do become available I will train a few, mostly JI rather than JHI. Thirdly I'm not a big fan of uber units. I find units such as Viking Huscarles overpowered and unchallenging to use.

Really I suppose it's down to personal preference.

-Edit: Almost forgot my manners there. Welcome to the org, and the main hall in particular, sharpshooter. You clearly know your stuff.

[sharpshooter]

Thanks for the welcome Caravel.

Ya, I do agree with what you say - the JHI are an uber unit that easily takes away the challenge.

There's a number of elite units I do like, but it's the underdog/lesser known selections that are the most interesting - and I do have a taste for the hybrids and auxilleries. Each unit has its time and a best way of using them, and its the phase of the game that often determines their effectiveness. Armour and valour can transform apparently mundane units.

Which leads me to the subject of this thread - no surprises that there's a few Turks there. I'm gonna lean to the Islamics, since they've not been as covered.

Turcoman Foot (TF) - fast, versatile, a good archer able to melee. I like the rabble formation somehow, and they stay in my Turk armies right the way through. Hard nuts when +2 out of Anatolia with an MB.

Bulgarian Brigands - similar to TF, I use them with Byzantine Cavalry in Byz armies in the same manner as TF/THA symbiosis I find in the Turks - shame the Byz don't have a fast spear unit. Unfortunately their build requirements (MB) are too high - they should be at Castle level, so don't get used as much as they should. They're great in deserts, too.

Crossbows (XBows) - underrated, and always in the shadow of Arbs. I didn't appreciate them until the Turks gave me no option since they don't get Arbs. They do a surprising amount of damage given time, and they're great on bridge defences. I put them out front against Horse Archers, especially the MHA, and against Jinetes. Even with Catholics I'm not in such a hurry for Arbs now. I've often killed over 100 with these in long battles.

Armenian Heavy Cavalry (AHC) - ok, an elite unit, with no need to say much about these. Simply the bomb when +2 from Armenia with the MHB.

Urban Militia +1 from Tuscany (TM) - the Italians secret weapon very early in the game.

Polish Retainers - another elite unit, only available to the Poles in High and Late. They're at their peak when the High period starts - you don't need to count the turns for the Royal courts to get built. Get an MHB first, (the AI rewards that with Acumen) and at +1 they're better than FK0's. They wilt a bit in the end game of High and in Late.

Mounted Crossbowmen - so easy to build, and so useful. Fast and versatile, and at their peak in Early and very early in the game. Pull enemy defensive and offensive positions apart, even if you're not doing much damage with them. Use them as light cavalry to run down the routers, and charge Archers with them. Snipe at the general, and uber units. Behind the defensive line as a missile unit they'll also kill over 100 in a long defensive battle.

Those 2 uber Kats that hang out in Greece? They'll retreat to the Castle at the sight of a single Mounted XBowman advancing while the rest of your army camp on a hill. Hire one for the job if you can't train them. Take them to Switzerland for the SAPs in Late.

Funny how you can have the mounted version 120 years before the foot version.

Muwahid Foot - another fast and versatile unit, with a brilliant charge, and good attack for spears. Able to pin knights for someone else to attack if you don't leave them too long at it. High morale (4) means they'll stick at the job, and be around even with 2/3 of the unit gone. Mangle Militia Sergeants and Feudal Sergeants with the charge - and if there's Ghazi or AUM nearby its all over in the local fight. Chase archers. Be the first to the top of the hill with this unit, and if you've got fast bows no one can push you off it. Confuse the enemy with a criss cross movement when advancing ...

Every Muslim army should have a couple - and they come into their own for the Turks (yes, again), filing up behind the TF and THA. Put them ahead of the Futs, and keep the Ghazi (also fast) wider and level with the Muw's.(Put the Futs and Ghazi on Hold Position to restrain them even when moving - both will charge Knights head on given the slightest opportunity). Have the AHC wide and level with the TF. Give everyone lots of space, with the Saracen Infantry, maybe only 1, at the bottom of a long loose V shape to protect the bows against cavalry charges. All wings and no centre, loose and fast - a killing machine! Get Turkish! Heh.

Get the Muwahids some decent armour and +1 from an MS, and watch them shine. Get sunglasses.

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There's lots more (can you tell I'm enthusiastic?) and ... errr ... the Ottoman Sipahi do have bows in vanilla, and dismount to TF for sieges. With Ottoman Foot (naturally the Sipahi are +1 from Edessa) they're another way to do the TF/THA thing, but a bit chunkier in keeping with the Late season.

Berber Camels - yes yes yes - take the time with them - use them to charge archers as well as flank cavalry. They can fire arrows when not doing anything else. Jinetes really don't like them, and find them hard to get around, being peppered with arrows as they try. Camel Warriors - yes yes yes - build that Fort in Syria and have a Bowyer just so you can armour them up while you build your spy centre. Throw them head on at those early unarmoured crusading RKs - flank the Kats, and demoralise the Mounted Sergeants to the point of desertion. Swat archers. Watch out for a few coming through with +3 for Pride.

I'm gonna give Vikings a bit more attention after their write up in this thread. I've been taking them for granted. (Did I mention Slav Warriors, especially the ones through the metalsmith in Bohemia? Look out for a couple with Pride with these, too)

Of course, I do like the elite units: Boyars, JHI, Huscarles, Varangians, Kats, Lancers - it's just a shame they have so little real opposition ... and I like the Halbs and Arbs that make the backbone of my High and Late catholic armies ... and the Pecheneg Cav that Gregori mentioned for the Byz in BKB's mod - fantastic, you can charge enemy archers across the front of their lines and they stand up in a fight ... and Swiss Pikemen - so strong before you get SAPs you wonder if you need them ... but I've surely said enough now, or even a few para's back ...

Heh.

Ok, enough. I greatly enjoyed reading the forum's selections. Good to bring this thread up like you did Sensei - it's one that should be dusted down every so often - regularly. Next time tell me I can only choose 1 favourite unit.

[sharpshooter]

*puts some ketchup on his words, trying to make them palatable to eat*

Oops - was I having a brain spasm?

Ottoman Sipahi don't have bows in Vanilla - or in VI. I was wrong (and Caravel, of course, was right). They do dismount to Turcoman Foot in sieges (why with bows dismounted and not mounted - maybe because there's no real Turk sword unit?)

Anyway ----- *munch* *munch*

[caravel]

Ottoman Sipahi do have compound bows in the Pocket Mod and are called "Timarli Sipahi". They're also a lot stronger but are only available in the late era and don't dismount to anything.

[predaturd]

my favourite unit is jinetes
theyre fast so they can chase down routers
good against armour (i think) so they can weaken men at arms quite well as well as sergeants and when theyve got a bit of valour can make for some awesome battlefield assassin units to kill the generals
decent in melee when charged into the flank or rear

main use of them from me is to go around the back of the enemy army and throw a few javelins at the generals units then retreat and have another unit or 2 come from the other side to throw into the rear again then when they tuirn around charge with the first lot 75% of the time it destroys the generals unit with minimul casualties and lets you get out leaveing the army to reeling while your charge of royal knights feudal men at arms and yet more jinetes (this time fresh) to mop up with

[caravel]

Jinetes themselves don't have an AP attack, it's the javelins that are AP. These are very effective against armoured units.

[gregori99]

my favourite unit is jinetes
theyre fast so they can chase down routers
good against armour (i think) so they can weaken men at arms quite well as well as sergeants and when theyve got a bit of valour can make for some awesome battlefield assassin units to kill the generals
decent in melee when charged into the flank or rear

main use of them from me is to go around the back of the enemy army and throw a few javelins at the generals units then retreat and have another unit or 2 come from the other side to throw into the rear again then when they tuirn around charge with the first lot 75% of the time it destroys the generals unit with minimul casualties and lets you get out leaveing the army to reeling while your charge of royal knights feudal men at arms and yet more jinetes (this time fresh) to mop up with

Jinettes are insanely brave but a unit of lowly archers backed by spears will beat them every time. Much better in the hands of a human player though.

I've taken a liking to Cuman Warriors, great bow unit but also pretty good in melee. In my latest campaign they stood firm against repeated charges by Mongol Heavies and defeated them. They had a couple of armour upgrades and high morale from shrines but I was still surprised how well they did.