So... Has anybody succeeded as Hayasdan yet?

[Dayve]

Warning: Assload of text below. If you don't want to know the story just skip to the very last paragraph.

I was reading a few old threads here yesterday and i saw a lot of people saying that the Hayasdan were all but impossible, which is also what the faction description for them says, so i decided to give them a try since i've been rolling over anything that comes my way as the Romani and it gets boring after a few days.

The first time i started the campaign i took the rebel city west of the capital, built a type 4 government, took all my units and began the march to the one north of the capital just across the river. I was beaten by the rebel garrison, badly... I should have used my 2-star faction heir but instead i used a 0-star noobcake.

At this point i was over -1000 in debt and couldn't do much, so i began tapping 'End turn' until i had some money to do something. After i had done this 3 times, to my surprise the rebels from the city to the north laid siege to and took the city to the west which i had taken earlier. They left 1 single unit defending the town to the north so i took my faction heir and 1 unit i had been able to create and stole it, but i was no better off because i was back in debt and couldn't even repair the walls i had damaged to get into the city in the first place. This was when the grey death laid siege to my capital with half a stack of troops.

I had an idea. I took my faction heir from the town to the north, raised everything i could in both towns and decided to hire some mercenaries and migrate to the town east of the capital. I had 7 grand to hire mercenaries and could afford only two units of medium infantry and some archers, so i took them and moved on. Two turns later i was -5000 in debt. When i arrived at the city to the east, what did i see? The grey death were laying siege to it with another half stack of units. I sighed, went into the kitchen to splash some cold water on my face and sat in disbelief for about 5 minutes before quitting the campaign.

I've only ever lost a campaign once before this... It was playing as Baktria in an earlier build of EB. My starting army was ambushed by rebel horse-archers and destroyed, then another rebel army laid siege to my only city and i quit, so losing this campaign was a big deal for me.

I tried to start again just now and had some initial success taking both the city to the north and west and even the one to the east, but as soon as i took it the grey death laid siege with half a stack which included heavy Persian spearmen and misthophoroi phalangitai, so all 4 family members were wasted along with the single unit of half-dead spearmen i had, including my now 3-star faction heir... Then that half stack of troops laid siege to my capital and, -3000 in debt, i quit.

You guys weren't joking when you said it was all but impossible. I can see it COULD be done, but i don't think i'll be trying again for some time. Has anybody here managed to reach that point with the Hai where you can deal with anything you come up against, even if their empire is 10x the size of yours?

[Landwalker]

You guys weren't joking when you said it was all but impossible. I can see it COULD be done, but i don't think i'll be trying again for some time. Has anybody here managed to reach that point with the Hai where you can deal with anything you come up against, even if their empire is 10x the size of yours?

I don't know if I would say I reached the point where I could deal with anything, but I did reach the point where I felt like I was in a relatively stable position. Right off the bat, I captured Mvkhsrrsakhtya or whatever that town is north of Armavir, then immediately went after Kotais (to the west) as well. I had used my starting funds to build roads in Armavir and then train two archers and two cavalry javelineers, which assisted me in my "conquests". After Kotais, I took a serious gamble and headed for the small settlement on the Caspian Sea.

This is basically where my whole campaign could have easily fallen apart, and the fact that it didn't was sheer luck. As my army was besieging the eastern town, the Seleucids sent a dinky halfish-stack up through the mountains towards Armavir. As my main army captured its third settlement, I had a diplomat down by Antioch offering the Seleucids a deal every single turn. Of course, since I had no money, all I could offer them was Map Information and Military Assistance vs. _______. So, every turn, the AS got my worthless maps and, evidently less worthless, military aid against one faction. Evidently, this was sufficient bribery to prevent them from actually attacking, instead milling around long enough for my army to get back to Armavir and, eventually, intimidate the AS stack into leaving. By the time the AS was gone, I was sworn to offer military aid against the Ptolemies, the Saba, the Saka Rauka, Carthage, Macedonia, and potentially Baktria and Pahlava. Whatever it was, it was enough, and they left.

At this point I sent my spy to "guard" one approach to Armavir, in the form of simply standing on a bridge so as to alert me to any AS forays, and my army to guard the other. This persisted for several years while I climbed out of debt and began building mines in my settlements. Once all the mines were up and running and the settlements were more developed, I was able to capture the Pokr-Hoyk territory and add it to my holdings, again having to send my army to a constricted pass to intimidate the AS away. Eventually, it was in the 250s BC and the AS still hadn't outright attacked me, I had five settlements, all reasonably stable, a steady income, and the ability to train units (or hire mercenaries) as much as necessary. Could I have handled a full-blown AS/Sauromatae two-front invasion? Doubtful. But I was certainly in the position to defend my lands adequately enough.

Of course, that's when I stopped the campaign to take up a Lusotannan one.

Cheers.

[Watchman]

I dunno, I got off to a nice start by immediately blitzing Mtskheta (the reb town immediately to the north of Armavir) and then proceeding to the Black Sea coast. That huge stack of skirmishers and archers that hangs around whatwasitcalled, Trebizond or somesuch, that Greek-ish town in Pontos Paralios anyway, isn't a problem once it wanders into the town and has to try sallying in the face of spearmen and heavy FM bodyguard cav...

Between the added taxpayer base and troop attrition, that put the budget on the positive pretty soon. That one valley settlement SW of Armavir is similarly easy pickings actually, as long as you bring along enough manpower to see off the loose reb stack in the province. Although that one sometimes apparently goes pick a fight with the Seleukids or Pontics instead.

And stay the fig away from type 4 govs, the budget can't handle the merc-general wages.

Granted, this campaign was *greatly* faciliated by the willingess of Pontos to keep to themselves and the Seleucids being much too busy elsewhere to come bother me... well, before around the point their Levant front was finally collapsing in the face of dogged Ptolemaic aggression, the Baktrians were about to start disputing the ownership of Central Asia, and I was like ten turns away from qualifying for the Pan-Caucasus Reform...
Didn't take too much effort to convince their belated invasion to go somewhere else, an odd Thorakitai Agema unit in the stack or no. Now I'm actually starting to worry more about the Ptolies and the Baktrians who're already making moves against the Seleucid provinces around the Caspian...

[Dayve]

Hmm, i hadn't thought of offering them assistance... (or bullpooping them into thinking i would give them assistance) i may try this. See, i can pull off some amazing victories due to the stupidity of the battle-AI, but one needs at least 3 units of spearmen to hold most of their army in place while you lure their most powerful units into traps, and by the time the Seleukids attack i just don't have those units left or the money to train them.

I'm going to try it your way later.

[dominique]

I'll give a try tonight!



Sincerely, I sympathise, I was roughed out from my Arverni game recently. and I still resent it. I was doing good, I had conquered the Aedui except for Mediolanum, i owned Massalia and Emphorion and I was allied to the Romani and Qarthadasti. All was going great when... The perfid poeni backstabbed me, followed by the Romani.

Ok, I said to myself, I can pull it off... Then a stack of Sweboz appears at my northern frontier and BANG. The trumpet sounded the traitor's charge.

I had to fight 5 stacks with only 2 on three fronts. No hard maths there.

I still wonder what I have done wrong. It was one of my best starts ever. Good nice victories, good RP, good diplo, nice empire building. Then bang. Finito la revolution.



I'm still unable to think to play a gallic faction.

I'll try Hayasdan to see.

[Dayve]

I'll give a try tonight!



Sincerely, I sympathise, I was roughed out from my Arverni game recently. and I still resent it. I was doing good, I had conquered the Aedui except for Mediolanum, i owned Massalia and Emphorion and I was allied to the Romani and Qarthadasti. All was going great when... The perfid poeni backstabbed me, followed by the Romani.

Ok, I said to myself, I can pull it off... Then a stack of Sweboz appears at my northern frontier and BANG. The trumpet sounded the traitor's charge.

I had to fight 5 stacks with only 2 on three fronts. No hard maths there.

I still wonder what I have done wrong. It was one of my best starts ever. Good nice victories, good RP, good diplo, nice empire building. Then bang. Finito la revolution.



I'm still unable to think to play a gallic faction.

I'll try Hayasdan to see.

Trust me, Hayasdan are 100x more difficult than Averni or Aediu. When playing as those guys you need to leave a big buffer of rebel cities between you and everybody else, especially the Sweboz. Just pound the Aediu enough so that they can still send armies your way but have no chance of succeeding anywhere. In the meantime you build up roads and farms and at least one expensive barracks until you reach a point where the money is coming in hard and you can build naked madmen or something tough and become capable of fighting even a 3-front war.

[Sarcasm]

I dunno, I got off to a nice start by immediately blitzing Mtskheta (the reb town immediately to the north of Armavir) and then proceeding to the Black Sea coast. That huge stack of skirmishers and archers that hangs around whatwasitcalled, Trebizond or somesuch, that Greek-ish town in Pontos Paralios anyway, isn't a problem once it wanders into the town and has to try sallying in the face of spearmen and heavy FM bodyguard cav...

Between the added taxpayer base and troop attrition, that put the budget on the positive pretty soon. That one valley settlement SW of Armavir is similarly easy pickings actually, as long as you bring along enough manpower to see off the loose reb stack in the province. Although that one sometimes apparently goes pick a fight with the Seleukids or Pontics instead.

And stay the fig away from type 4 govs, the budget can't handle the merc-general wages.

Granted, this campaign was *greatly* faciliated by the willingess of Pontos to keep to themselves and the Seleucids being much too busy elsewhere to come bother me... well, before around the point their Levant front was finally collapsing in the face of dogged Ptolemaic aggression, the Baktrians were about to start disputing the ownership of Central Asia, and I was like ten turns away from qualifying for the Pan-Caucasus Reform...
Didn't take too much effort to convince their belated invasion to go somewhere else, an odd Thorakitai Agema unit in the stack or no. Now I'm actually starting to worry more about the Ptolies and the Baktrians who're already making moves against the Seleucid provinces around the Caspian...

Sounds like it's time to pull a 'Tigranes' and help out the Seleukids.

[Watchman]

Sounds like it's time to pull a 'Tigranes' and help out the Seleukids.

Quite. You know that city right south of Armavir, past the lake, whateveritsnamenowwas ? The Ptollies besieged it back when I was at war with the Seleukids and I sent an army to the vicinity with an eye on taking the place after the garrison saw off the Ptoly army; the buggers went and captured it in one go though, so I instead went and raided Seleukid Mesopotamia. Now that the Seles are kinda on the ropes and the Ptolies well on their way to mutating into Yellow Death though, I figure it's time to "cross the Rubicon" (or Tigris/Euphrates as the case is) and give them a major problem in their rather exposed northern flank... that province's one of the post-reform Homeland regions anyway and creates a buffer for Armavir, so it's pretty much win-win all the way.

Depending a bit on how good those Kappadokian axemen and Eastern medium cav actually are at eating Galatikoi and Thorakitai alive in flanking moves mind you. But potentially I may be able to raid all the way down to Antiokia to nuke the MICs there...

[Jurdagat]

My Hayasdan campaign turned out great, but it's only on H campaign difficulty.
Guess that makes it a bit easier.
At least it's something you can try if VH turns out to be to much to handle. :)

To tired to add anything serious at the moment, but will probably edit this later.

[antisocialmunky]

I thought the Parthian start was fairly insane but then I decided to pick the Hai up and all I can say is... wow. However, I did learn two useful things from my Parthian Campaign to help me with this:

A. Get friendly with all factions that are neutral or at a state of war with you. Since the diplomacy AI starts off every one as essentiall neutral, the factions you are at war with will be friendly with you if you get to them before a full stack of death shows up.

This is especially useful with the nomads as they usually will side with you over the AS and they have a tendency of sending armies of noble cavalry after you which you will be hard pressed to kill with your limited Hai troop selections. Caucasion Spearmen and Archers are good performance for the price but good luck beating horse archers and Catanks with them. Atleast with the Parthians you could afford to run around with two armies of a few HA and body guards to defend your whole country.

In the case of Hai, you should send your diplomat up north and secure a peace treaty and eventually an alliance with the Sarmatians(you don't have to take any of their lands to win!). As long as you're relatively strong(IE own greater Armenia) they'll leave you alone.

B. When you see a diplomat trying to bribe your town, that is a precursor for war. You'll get about 2-3 years before the Grey stacks start migrating north so PREPARE! While the AS usually send smallish stacks, sometimes they'll send a full stack and then you're basically lost.

[Karo]

Quite. You know that city right south of Armavir, past the lake, whateveritsnamenowwas ? The Ptollies besieged it back when I was at war with the Seleukids and I sent an army to the vicinity with an eye on taking the place after the garrison saw off the Ptoly army; the buggers went and captured it in one go though, so I instead went and raided Seleukid Mesopotamia. Now that the Seles are kinda on the ropes and the Ptolies well on their way to mutating into Yellow Death though, I figure it's time to "cross the Rubicon" (or Tigris/Euphrates as the case is) and give them a major problem in their rather exposed northern flank... that province's one of the post-reform Homeland regions anyway and creates a buffer for Armavir, so it's pretty much win-win all the way.

Depending a bit on how good those Kappadokian axemen and Eastern medium cav actually are at eating Galatikoi and Thorakitai alive in flanking moves mind you. But potentially I may be able to raid all the way down to Antiokia to nuke the MICs there...

Watchman your going to have a hard time fighting those guys, I hate fighting against those ptollies. Their units are much harder to kill than the Selceudics. And the secret to a succesful Hay campaign is alot of luck and attacking the enemy when they are weak and not ready for an attack. Fight them on your terms and try to make sure your on the offincef. Fught in their lands. Because the AI will send the armies to protect the city instead going after your cities.

[Watchman]

Yeah, I know well enough to bank on major numerical superiority, ample use of missile troops and mobility and to expect serious casualties against those guys (on the plus side the Hai units tend towards both cheap, quick and numerous...). Still, the Ptolies have northern Mesopotamia rather sparse of armies and are a bit preoccupied with Seleucid holdouts around Baylon and Seleukeia...

And of course active use of spies and assasins to sabotage the barracks wont to turn out something unpleasant in the vicinity of the operation area ought to kind of limit the amount of nastiness they'll be able to divert against me. James Bond FTW.

[Sarkiss]

Watchman your going to have a hard time fighting those guys, I hate fighting against those ptollies. Their units are much harder to kill than the Selceudics. And the secret to a succesful Hay campaign is alot of luck and attacking the enemy when they are weak and not ready for an attack. Fight them on your terms and try to make sure your on the offincef. Fught in their lands. Because the AI will send the armies to protect the city instead going after your cities.

ill double that.
and you guys should really stop playing Hai on VH, unless you enjoy fighting multiple stacks every turn of course
and that hint on diplomats coming first is something i noticed ages ago, back in vanilla. so watch out for the diplomats!
here is my save. im in 219 BC and not as big as you'd be with the easier faction but still a formidable kingdom.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=U9425ZRL

another hint is to capture Karthiokerta and build epic walls. keep 5, 6 units of long range missile - preferably slingers plus some melle, a good FM, and you can sally forth and easily destroy any besieging army.
and forget about client rulers, they'll suck your treasury dry!

[Watchman]

Personally, I stopped playing VH campaigns a fair while ago already. The AI is rabid enough as is.

[dominique]

Trust me, Hayasdan are 100x more difficult than Averni or Aediu. When playing as those guys you need to leave a big buffer of rebel cities between you and everybody else, especially the Sweboz. Just pound the Aediu enough so that they can still send armies your way but have no chance of succeeding anywhere. In the meantime you build up roads and farms and at least one expensive barracks until you reach a point where the money is coming in hard and you can build naked madmen or something tough and become capable of fighting even a 3-front war.

I KNOW! I've won the Getai, the Makedonian, and approx 1 year away from winning the Roman. Arverni should have been easy. I've done everything you described. On of my army had 3 gaesetai and 3 Batacorii. It should have been Ok. It didn't. I was stuck in a maneuvering campaign in northern Italy, I've razed Segesta and Arriminum, but I just couldn't pull it back since it was stopping 2 stacks. The other stack was trying to control the Carthaginians and the Sweboz but running around like crazy around Gaul. My huge problem wasn't the battles, I won them. I had no revenue since my trade went down. My problem was the churn. I was losing 100 guys per battle, with no cash to replenish. I've beat the Cartaginians good, I've made the Romans cry, but the Sweboz put their spear between my ribs real good.

I think I should have left Mediolanum alone. Everything went crashing down after I sent my army there...

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building.

[Sarkiss]

Personally, I stopped playing VH campaigns a fair while ago already. The AI is rabid enough as is.

indeed. on H you get far more reasonable, realistic development.

[Elminster12]

Yeah, I play on H/M myself. The AI seems a little more reasonable. As for the Hai, part of your fortunes really do rely on Parthia and the Ptolies. If they really lay into the Seleukids, you'll be in great shape as the settlements the AS would normally use to send soldiers at you get tied up defending themselves. IMO, they are now harder than Pontos, because all Pontos needs for a boost is for the Ptolies to bog down AS. The Hai need two factions to step up to the plate for best affect.

That said, it's taken me a lot of trial and error to get to a point where I can comfortably get Pontos off and running, and I imagine the same is true for the Hai.

[LorDBulA]

I am playing Hayasadan campagne now and its going very well.
I have 9 settlements including Seleukia and Babylon and I am kicking Seleukids bottom.
I play on VH/M difficutly and this was wise choice because on my usual VH/H setting it would be extremely difficult.

[Dayve]

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building.

Sounds good. My record was 4 cities with them, then the grey death raped a city with my 4 generals (all with silver chevrons) who were holding my 'kingdom' together. After that all i could muster were raw spearmen with no chevrons or armour upgrades and a general who couldn't run a hotdog stand, let alone an army... If 4 units of spearmen and 1 unit of archers can be called an army.

[Watchman]

Stone walls are your friend.

[Dayve]

Stone walls are your friend.

So is the money it costs to build them...

[dominique]

Ok, I've checked what I need to get through that one.

All you need is love Ta-ra-na-na
All you need is love Ta-ra-na-na
Love is all you need!

I will explain my point.

I will need diplomats to spread the love.
So the Seleukids don't whack me fast.

And
I will need my princes to love their wives dearly, with some herbalist help
So I get as much generals as possible.

I think the alpha and omega of the early Hayasdan armies are the general bodyguards. The infantry's only role is to tire the ennemy when they hack the poor buggers to pieces...

[Watchman]

So is the money it costs to build them...

Given how much of a "force multiplier" they are for those cheap-ass Caucasian levies you're going to have to use for garrison duty anyway, I'd say that 3200 and six turns was a worthwhile enough investement. Plus at least the H campaign AI seems to regard them as something of a deterrent.

[Watchman]

I think the alpha and omega of the early Hayasdan armies are the general bodyguards. The infantry's only role is to tire the ennemy when they hack the poor buggers to pieces...

The Early Persian Bodyguards have armour value something like 6 higher than they should mind you, but even with that scaled down to a less credibility-straining 17 you're fairly correct. Which is IMHO a quite accurate depiction of the sort of poor-ass feudal/tribal warring the beginning of any Hai campaign consists of, where the armies are made of crappy levies and the decisive element (as well as around the only properly armed and trained soldiers) is the personal guards of high potentates.

That said, even those levy spearmen tend to put up enough of a fight that I always preferred shooting them to bits and engaging with crappy levy spearmen of my own... not as painful that way. They can take down a lot of horsies before their numbers drop to the breaking point after all.

[jhhowell]

Has anyone else run into the problem of the Pan-Caucasus homeland/expansion markers spamming out every turn once you take Sophene (the province with Karkakiotherta or however you spell it)? I haven't had time to play in a while, but as of my last save every province in the region except the capital (I own the entire Pan-Caucasus region, plus Mazaka) had the starting "Alliance/3" marker and three of the post-reform (Homeland/1 or Expansion/2, as appropriate) markers. Not sure what that's about, but I've got seven turns until the Sophene homeland govt. finishes and would rather not have ~10 markers in every province... Assuming the finished govt. would stop the spamming somehow (the second and third markers showed up not long after taking the province, so I'm just guessing that has something to do with it).

As for the original topic, as others have said if you play on VH/M you deserve what you get. At saner settings Hai is a pretty fun faction, though this being RTW everyone will still attack you eventually (I got hit by AS and Pontus in the 250s). Like the steppe factions, Hai can defend really well. Often the horse archers can drive off poorly planned sieges inflicting several hundred casualties for no losses at all. Mines will allow plenty of mercenary recruits, too, preserving your population base.

Bodyguards rock, but don't forget the archers (both horse and foot). You won't see armor worth mentioning until the Chalkaspidai and Thorakitai come visiting, and those rarely appear in any numbers. Archers are murder against the vast majority of your early foes. Defending Sophene from attacks from the south is especially fun, with that absurd slope helping you out!

[Karo]

the marker thing I got the same problem her, but it doesn't affect the game so I don't give it that much attention.

[Foot]

the marker thing I got the same problem her, but it doesn't affect the game so I don't give it that much attention.

It bewilders me as to how this is happening, so instead of thinking through it logically I'm just going to blitz it with the following code.

Open the EBBS.txt up (found in eb/data/scripts/show_me)

Search for "2e" till you get the the Pan-Caucasus Script.

Find the following code (its right at the top of this section)

;; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor

Replace all of it with the following:

; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnEnd SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor

;; Check if 1st Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 1.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Armavir
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 0
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 1

end_monitor

;; Check if 2nd Lvl PCER already reached, if true set counter to 2.
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Karkathiokerta
and I_LocalFaction romans_scipii
and SettlementBuildingExists = homeland
and I_CompareCounter Caucasus_Reform = 1

set_counter Caucasus_Reform 2

end_monitor

Its savegame compatible so start up a game play a turn and see if Ani-Kamah gains an expansion resource.

Foot

[Karo]

Foot it doesn't it's still the Homeland resource, but did stop markers to multiply further it's now on 9 and it stopt there.

[dominique]

Anyway, I think I've got the right stuff to make an armenian empire... I'll give it a try. If i'm a buffoon, I'll make you laugh with my pathetics attempts at empire building.

Ok, I've started it.

I've looked around the map, checked the financial report, concluded that I needed more than some hillbilly villages to survive.

I went east.

Phraaspa.

A large town.

Bingo!

I'm still reeling in debt (-15000!), but I've now a positive balance.

Oh man, it's a stressing game that one. The "damocles over your head" feeling is incredible. You look at your objectives, you look at your ennemies (how will I beat a 4-5 phalanx army is still a wonder!) and you know you don't have what it needs to do it, unless the gods want it so... Sweaty palms and curses garanteed.

[Sarkiss]

Ok, I've started it.

I've looked around the map, checked the financial report, concluded that I needed more than some hillbilly villages to survive.

I went east.

Phraaspa.

A large town.

Bingo!

I'm still reeling in debt (-15000!), but I've now a positive balance.

Oh man, it's a stressing game that one. The "damocles over your head" feeling is incredible. You look at your objectives, you look at your ennemies (how will I beat a 4-5 phalanx army is still a wonder!) and you know you don't have what it needs to do it, unless the gods want it so... Sweaty palms and curses garanteed.

have fun