So... Has anybody succeeded as Hayasdan yet?

[MiniMe]

In my KH campaign AI is very successful as Hayasdan.
And: I must admit they give me much more trouble than Grey death, Yellow thieves, White pacifists and Red weaklings (yep, I'm that able diplomat and a good neighbor).
And: AI is surprisingly good in the battlefield with these armenian units. He is:
1. wiping out my cretan snipers first;
2. outflanks me;
3. shoots my armoured boyz in the back;
4. charges and withdraw charges and withdraw charges and withdraw till my boyz are dead dead dead.

In fact I'm so impressed of AI Hayasdan tactics that when I see Hayasdan late bodyguard unit on the battlefield I turn computer off and run to bedroom for shelter.

But I don't hate them. I respect them. It is Yellow thieves whom I hate, Yellow thieves who bought off my whole Turkey in less than four years without a single fight with my glorious epileptic infantry.
One fine day Alexandria will burn burn burn. Burarum.
Spartans don't read, they don't need to read, they are happy with comixes.

[Dayve]

They're doing good on your game because they're getting 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village.

[MiniMe]

They're doing good on your game because they're getting 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village.

True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.

[Landwalker]

True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.

Because if they have that reputation now, it must have also been true twenty-three hundred years ago.

Cheers.

[Sarkiss]

True. However money bonuses did not help much Baktria, Pahlava, and Averni. They are no more and not because of me.

Besides in my country armenians have a reputation as able businessmen so... In their case I find 35k a turn at the start for only having a crappy village quite realistic.

spasibo za kompliment
im rather impressed hearing of such smart AI battle behavior. do you use any formation add ons? sounds like you have a lot of fun. in my Carthaginian campaign the most you can get out of AI is an attempt to smash my center trough in a straight forward attack

[MiniMe]

nope, I'm not DV formations fan at all, they look a bit weird to me
As per western EB hemishere battles (celts, iberia, romans and carthadastim), where phalanx, horsearcherz, strong cavalry and massarcherz are not involved, infantry and skirmishers only... I've always found them lacking style and here is a great post of Thaatu observation of western tactics

The following illustration explains my default Aedui tactics:

[Dayve]

I think i've done it! Thanks to the tips from this thread, i'm on my way up as the Hai.

On the very first turn i disbanded the slingers, javelinmen, heavy cavalry and one unit of spearmen. I took everything i had except for my faction leader and took Phraaspa. When you disband all the units i mentioned and put the capital on very high tax, you only lose 300 minai a turn rather than the 2000+ you lose if you keep the whole army and go straight for the city west of the capital.

Anyhow, i captured Phraaspa with ease, thanks to the two units of archers which butchered the enemy behind their own walls before my spearpoints even saw action. As soon as i ended the turn after taking Phraaspa i was out of debt and able to retrain and build a puppet government, leave one unit of spears behind and leave. I then took my two units of archers, two units of spearmen and 4 generals to the city north of the capital. I failed to capture it twice, each time retraining and returning for another go. On the second attempt i wiped out both units of Gregorian medium infantry to the point of not even able to be considered a unit anymore. On the third time i used my 4 cavalry units, now with at least 1 silver chevron each, to act as a steamroller and literally just trampled over every unit into the city square and took the city. After the battle all 4 family members survived, despite losing 75% and more of their bodyguards.

I've been giving the grey death illusional assistance against Eleutheroi, Ptolemies, Koinon and Saka, and 50 minai and map information each turn. It's worked, i haven't seen a single army of grey death and i'm on around turn 15.

I now have a choice to make, and i'm unsure of what to do. I could continue to expand or i could build up the 3 cities i have... I was thinking of finding a nice juicy Eleutheroi city somewhere, hiring 1 strong mercenary unit and turning to raid tactics. Capture it, exterminate, raise everything raisable and use the funds to boost my cities with new builsindgs, then abandon it on very high taxes until it revolts back.

What would you do?

[Landwalker]

I now have a choice to make, and i'm unsure of what to do. I could continue to expand or i could build up the 3 cities i have... I was thinking of finding a nice juicy Eleutheroi city somewhere, hiring 1 strong mercenary unit and turning to raid tactics. Capture it, exterminate, raise everything raisable and use the funds to boost my cities with new builsindgs, then abandon it on very high taxes until it revolts back.

What would you do?

Absolutely go capture Kotais (on the Black Sea coast, just west of Armavir and Mksvharaskravahfskva or whatever it's called. You get a coastal settlement and one with the potential for building mines, and I believe you can recruit horse archers there as well. After that, I'd say go for the Pokr-Hoyk province and then for Trapezous.

After that, it could go either way--knock out Pontos and start working your way around Asia Minor, or ally with the Ptolemaioi and dive into the AS. Going after Pontos is appealing because they're small and, usually, not too tough. However, I'd recommend trying to get a Grand Alliance going against the AS, or at least forcing them into a two-front war with you and the Ptolemies. Pontos' late-game elite units are, frankly, not that tough, so you can afford to let them build up a while longer. However, I'd recommend putting the hurt on the Seleucids before they start popping out lots of Argyaspidai and the like. A strong late-game AS is, to me, a bigger threat than a late-game Pontos.

Cheers.

[dominique]

Hey you could get that resort town on the Black Sea just south of the Caucasus (Kartli? Egrisi province on the recruiter map)

It's an homeland province and you can train Scythian horse archers there. You could build a really nice mobile raider army with bodyguards and horse archers#. If a grey stack comes, it would get it in the teeth. Eventually, you would also get some georgian kick ass infantry. Plus, you have a port where you can trade with Pontus and the other Black Sea powers when they get there (Mak, Getai).

EDIT: Posted at the same time as watchman, sorry!

[Dayve]

I'll go for the two costal towns then. The one where i can trade with Pontos and the one where i can trade with Pahlava, or Baktria if they've conquered them.

When i have a mobile army i shall break my alliance with Seleukids and ally with the Ptolies!

[Dayve]

Screw it, i give up. I'm never playing as Hayasdan again. As soon as i loaded the game up to continue taking rebel cities the Seleukids sent a half-stack right at my capital. I defeated them and was left with no choice but to retrain and take the fight to the Seleukids with my army of 3 units of spearmen and 1 archers. Funnily enough, i took a Seleukid town just below Phraaspa, exterminated it and raised everything and had myself a lovely 30k in the bank. Great right?

No, wrong. At that point the grey bastards laid siege to my capital with another half stack. Completely undefended as i had to use all my troops to take the Seleukid city. So, i hire a mercenary army with my 30 grand and begin the march back to my home territories. By this time my capital is lost and i'm -20,000 in debt because it takes 30 turns to march from one city to another. My capital is defended by an army with over 5 units of good phalangites and the rest of the stack made up of mercenary heavy hoplites and axemen and other lovely units i just can't afford... So, 50k in debt i decide that even if i took my capital back it would take me over 40 turns to get out of debt, all the while the Seleukids would be pounding away at me, so i decided to just give up.

I am never, ever playing as the Hayasdan again, and in my next campaign i'm going to destroy the Seleukids and exterminate and raise every single city they own. Especially their capital... I'm going to exterminate it twice.

[artavazd]

Come on Dayve dont give up. You're Playing with Armenia, you have to get in with the Armenian spirit!! SURVIVE and laugh while you're at it

[Dayve]

I've calmed down now... I will try again, i'll keep trying until i'm able to effectively fight the Seleukids and rape their cities. I don't see how any amount of skill can turn the Hayasdan's horrible starting predicament around though, nothing but luck can give you the chance.

Even if you managed to take all 5 cities that everybody says you need to take, you'll need to pay for units for defense incase they are attacked from any of your neighbours, as well as keep a standing army to deal with the Seleukids when they come knocking. You can't do all that AND build up your cities at the same time because the 5 surrounding cities that are there for the taking are all crap. They make no income and are too far spaced out to defend properly... By the time your standing army reaches them to defend they've been taken and enslaved.

[Landwalker]

One thing you might consider trying:

Start the game, and do the usual conquering thing. Don't worry too much about going in debt, because every captured settlement adds to your income and detracts from your army upkeep. If you manage to grab all the settlements (personally I only consider Kotais, Mtshwhatsit, and Kabalaka to be the ones you need--I leave Phrapsa as a buffer, for what it's worth) before the AS attack you, fantastic.

When you realize the Seleucids are about to come for you (you'll know when they send a diplomat to hang out next to one of your cities), grab a spy (don't let your starting spy get killed) and have him find out which approach the Seleucids are taking--you have the geographical advantage of being in the mountains, so they have to come through narrow passes and, often, over bridges to reach you. Figure out which pass they're coming up, and bring as much army as you have (which may be very little, but bring it anyway), and just sit in their way. I recommend camping out on a river crossing, but you might prefer a mountainous position. The Seleucid army will either be intimidated into leaving without initiating hostilities, or it will attack you anyway and be a considerable tactical disadvantage (and, given the dinky crap the Seleucids throw at you initially, probably a general disadvantage as well). I've never had the Seleucids send more than one army at a time, so you'll only have to defend one pass at a time. The key point here is: Don't let the Seleucids actually reach any of your settlements. If they do, they'll attack them, and then you'll probably be boned. Find a choke point and just sit there, blocking the route in. Unless your army is miserably laughable, there's a chance they'll just stare at you for a bit, then wander off.

All the while, your settlements are slowly dragging you out of debt (in fact, disband as much of your army as you're comfortable with, so that you'll get out faster). Once you're in the black, keep saving up and build mines in every settlement you can. Then you'll be able to get started on everything else.

As you can tell, it's a long, slow process, and a certain degree of luck is certainly involved. However, scare tactics and sycophancy (offering military aid against all kinds of random people) have done a good job for me of working in unison to prevent the AS from attacking me before I'm ready, and once you're ready, you can dive right in. Best of luck.

Cheers.

[antisocialmunky]

You know, the irony is that the Caucasus are very, very productive and is very lucrative when developped. Its better than being a dirt poor Nomad up North. Even mighty Parthia starts with some really dumpy lands.

[Karo]

In kotai you can train Horse archers get a few and defend your lands with them and one general. There's nothing that the Grey dead can trow at you that you can't handle with your horse archers. And you can go with your second army in tio offensife

[artavazd]

Make sure to use the horse archers who have a spear for a second weapon, and not a little dagger. The ones with spears can mount a pretty good charge. Charge with one of them in the rear of a phalanx, and when that unit turns around charge about 3-4 units from the side the phalanx just turned its back to. In some cases you wont even need heavy cav. The steppe riders, and other horse archers which use the spear are plenty.

[Watchman]

I always make a point of, as soon as finances allow, sending a spare FM (there always being at least one idiot around that couldn't manage a settlement to save his life) to set up a watchtower at the end of each and every one of those long north-south valleys, as well as the end of Pontos Paralios that pretty much borders the Pontic heartlands; that way I'll be well forewarned if and when the neighbours start getting funny ideas. (Watchtowers are 500 a pop to build and thereafter free and eternal, amen; recruiting a spy costs 200 if you don't have any traits or ancilliaries affecting it and they pull a 100 mnai in wages each per turn, so you do the math regarding which is better for such long-term "radar station duty"...)

Personally I only ever go after Phraaspa once I've gotten decently well established around the western end of the Caucasus (around which time the Seleukids have also tended to weaken the garrison some - I tend to send a spy to hover around there to keep an eye on their progress), where the cities are clumped closely enough together that with a semi-decent road network they're easy to guard with some infantry in the cities themselves and a mobile reserve stationed in Armavir and/or Kotais. Kabalaka, that dinky little town up by the Caspian, and Phraaspa are isolated enough to require decent garrisons of their own (although in my game the Sauromatae were never interested in even trying at the former); indeed, as the latter is in every respect in the enthralling positions of staring down into the maw of the Grey Giant, it basically requires the permanent presence of a full army and an upgrade to stone walls ASAP. On the plus side it'll also be your forward-base jumping-off point for starting to gnaw your way down towards Persis, and the only approach paths with roads both cross the river at some point...

[Leão magno]

As for my campaing I ook the north f capital city withoutdisbanding, then went to Kotais, money was ok by then, then I went in Pontos direction which proved to be a mistake, those pigs betrayed me and defeated my only army!!! back to the blue prints

[Landwalker]

As for my campaing I ook the north f capital city withoutdisbanding, then went to Kotais, money was ok by then, then I went in Pontos direction which proved to be a mistake, those pigs betrayed me and defeated my only army!!! back to the blue prints

Technically, if you marched against them and they attacked you, they weren't betraying you, they were defending themselves...

Cheers.

[Watchman]

I slapped down a fort with a tiny depleted remnant spearman unit inside a bit south of Trapezous to block the approach and politely told the Pontics they no longer had military access rights to my domains. And that town being chronically restless, it needs a decent-sized garrison anyway which further discourages the AI.

Then again, I keep campaign difficulty on Hard. The VH AI is too obsessive-compulsive for my tastes.

[jhhowell]

It bewilders me as to how this is happening, so instead of thinking through it logically I'm just going to blitz it with the following code.

That code helped, but the accumulation of homeland/expansion markers continues at a slower pace. I have no idea what's causing it - my latest saves are in Summer and Winter 247, with six and seven markers per province respectively. Nothing noteworthy happened in the Autumn and Winter turns (various battles, but nothing I'd expect the script to know or care about). All of the governments in the Pan-Caucasus region have been in place for years now, in case that matters. The timing is about right for one marker/year, but I didn't pay close attention until 247, when I realized that I had a couple more markers than when I started using Foot's revised code (starting ~250ish, I probably have saves that could narrow it down more specifically).

I can post save games if that would help to track this down.

[innocex]

One thing you might consider trying:

Start the game, and do the usual conquering thing. Don't worry too much about going in debt, because every captured settlement adds to your income and detracts from your army upkeep. If you manage to grab all the settlements (personally I only consider Kotais, Mtshwhatsit, and Kabalaka to be the ones you need--I leave Phrapsa as a buffer, for what it's worth) before the AS attack you, fantastic.

When you realize the Seleucids are about to come for you (you'll know when they send a diplomat to hang out next to one of your cities), grab a spy (don't let your starting spy get killed) and have him find out which approach the Seleucids are taking--you have the geographical advantage of being in the mountains, so they have to come through narrow passes and, often, over bridges to reach you. Figure out which pass they're coming up, and bring as much army as you have (which may be very little, but bring it anyway), and just sit in their way. I recommend camping out on a river crossing, but you might prefer a mountainous position. The Seleucid army will either be intimidated into leaving without initiating hostilities, or it will attack you anyway and be a considerable tactical disadvantage (and, given the dinky crap the Seleucids throw at you initially, probably a general disadvantage as well). I've never had the Seleucids send more than one army at a time, so you'll only have to defend one pass at a time. The key point here is: Don't let the Seleucids actually reach any of your settlements. If they do, they'll attack them, and then you'll probably be boned. Find a choke point and just sit there, blocking the route in. Unless your army is miserably laughable, there's a chance they'll just stare at you for a bit, then wander off.

All the while, your settlements are slowly dragging you out of debt (in fact, disband as much of your army as you're comfortable with, so that you'll get out faster). Once you're in the black, keep saving up and build mines in every settlement you can. Then you'll be able to get started on everything else.

As you can tell, it's a long, slow process, and a certain degree of luck is certainly involved. However, scare tactics and sycophancy (offering military aid against all kinds of random people) have done a good job for me of working in unison to prevent the AS from attacking me before I'm ready, and once you're ready, you can dive right in. Best of luck.

Cheers.

this is a pretty good tactic, clogging up the moutain passes - you can also build forts in the mountain with a weak garrison, and keep one strong stack on patrol in the south to help if the fort is attacked

i am playing as hayasdan too, i was able to get about 7 rebel cities and now i have a long war with the seleukids, we will see how i do, i have to completely get guerilla on them.

i was wondering, i was trying to do the hai homeland reformation and i was able to build a type 1 gov't in armavir. but now how do i build the other type 1 and 2 gov't in the surrounding cities? i know, for example, in ani khamar, i should be able to build a homeland city, and i built the prerequisite buildings - and when i destroy the military occupation thing, i can only rebuild a type 3 satrapy gov't... any ideas? do you think im still missing one of the prereq. buildings?

[Sarkiss]

i was wondering, i was trying to do the hai homeland reformation and i was able to build a type 1 gov't in armavir. but now how do i build the other type 1 and 2 gov't in the surrounding cities? i know, for example, in ani khamar, i should be able to build a homeland city, and i built the prerequisite buildings - and when i destroy the military occupation thing, i can only rebuild a type 3 satrapy gov't... any ideas? do you think im still missing one of the prereq. buildings?

you do not need to destroy military occupation. what you do need to destroy is a government buildind (whether it is type III or IV) itself.
i had difficulties realising how the reform works too
AFAIK, when the Homeland (Type I government) building IS FINISHED in Armavir only then the other settlements' markers for Homeland, Expansion will appear. just wait. when they appear destroy the above mentioned buildings and erect the new ones - type I and II.

[Leão magno]

Technically, if you marched against them and they attacked you, they weren't betraying you, they were defending themselves...

Cheers.

I was going in that direction but I was just taking Trapezous, I did not invaded Ponic territory, that is why I said they betraid me!

Anyway, I avoided Trapezous and ended my agreements with Seleucia since they sent 2 armies to my border, the Seleucids are not attacking even though I have just one full stack to defend the trritory. Is working fine, I am having some time o build up my army from a Ptolemais regular tribute for which I gave them my alligiance!

[General War]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.

6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

[Maksimus]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.

6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

Very nice, I personaly used that tactic against Sarmatians too..

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=93151&page=5

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
General War,

I've added your post to my favourites and copied your tactics in a text file.
.

[Maksimus]

EB rocks! I've developed a very simple tactic using the Hayasdan(VH/H). Using only 6 horse archers and 3 generals and I can completely destroy a full stack. In fact, I once destroy 1.5 stacks(I layed siege to a city whilst my infantry was trying to catch up - which is another tactic).

Setup: Put your generals(gen) on the biggest hill, far away from where the enemy are likely to setup. Horse archers(HA) can go anywhere. In fact the more random the better.

1st action: Set your HA to destroy all archers, then slingers then skirmishers.

2nd action: If they have cavalry, it's now chasing someone. Get your gen and kill it and then go back to your hill.

3rd action: Make a cup of tea.

4th action: Make sure none of your HA get destroyed. If anything goes near your Gen then destroy it.

5th action: By now, all the foot will be exhausted. Go to one of your HA, switch off skirmishing then gently guide whatever foot that's chasing it to your gen. Don't send your gen to the foot, let the foot come to you. We don't want your gen to get exhausted.


6th action: Keep this up and destroy the foot units one at a time until they're all dead.

This tactic works fantastically against foot armies(Selekid and Ptol - who are allied against me), but does anyone have a tactic for taking on cavalry armies? I'm going to have to take on the Parthians very soon, and I'm more than a little bit worried.

See here :: I personaly used similar tactic against Sarmatians too.. That means HA and heavy Cavalry - But I play on a Very Hard battle see my thread bellow so you can belive me

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...t=93151&page=5

The poin is, that when you battle large Horse armies That are likely to have many HA and most of the Stepe Noble Units - You mus be fast and smart to win!
Let me give an example of you (player) having Generals and HA, and lets say the AI has some Generals and HA (in my case it was generals and those 'good' HA nobles)

1. If you are defening... you have two options!
First is to put ALL of your army as near to enemy as possible (disable S mode for HA and make them defend) - Then you seek a FLANK of the enemy army to launch a FULL attack!
With all your army riding in the dirrection of the enemy - so when you come near the first enemy unit - other enemy units wont hit you with arrows much..

That means to click the whole army, that is now tight together to run behid the enemy from the flank. But if you are in some distance from the HA enemy you should just spread your army until you came close to launch an attack.
In that way your HA will allways catch the enemy just in time for the generals to deliver the finall blow!(just before that you should go slightly back with your HA leaving the generals to do their part)

Then you use full charge of all your generals (just have to look that they are spread and one by the other or even one within the other generel - so you can make better charge bonus against the enemy!)..

By this method you are making enemy flee - but be sure to kill their general first and that the army does not come back to fight! If there are some woods - use them to be there all the time and to gain a full charge while in the safe!
Second way to win when you are defending is to go as far away from the enemy at the battle deployment - so you waith him to come to you! Then use his (most likely) spread army and flank him now from two sides if possible..(this is very likely to win if you have some foot to, but basicly., foot complies with all these tactics)
For runing down those fast archers yous your HA and generals that follow.. but be sure not to chase one unit at a time.. make your attack in full.. at once... sometimes your horse archers can kill couple of units that attack you one after the other ..

2. If you are Attacking .. use the First tactic when defending!

And this is the way I win my Very Hard battles with huge unit settings...
Try it.. you can't loose much!

[innocex]

while we are talking about hayasdan, has anyone else noticed that when you make a custom battle, some of the hai units are missing? for example, i cant find armenian generals, light horse archers, caucasian archers?

am i making some mistake?