Why do certain players think that some factions are underpowered?

[Sakkura]

Myself, the only thing I'm going to say on this topic is this:

In my opinion, EVERY faction in EB is overpowered!

Thus, there is balance after all, since all factions are equally overpowered.

Everybody's happy!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

P.S
Note the tongue-in-cheek approach

Heh, I dare you to win a VH/VH campaign as Hayasdan (or maybe Pahlava/Saka Rauka) without cheating and say that again.

[Michaelis]

It is true. Sling bullets generally fare better against armored opponents than arrows, although of course there are many variables involved.

I think this is absolutely insane. Sling shot better against armour than a metal arrowhead? Could you give me one good reason why? On second thoughts, don't bother - no matter what I hear, I guess if I'm ever to play EB again, I'll have to painstakingly go through all the slinger/archer units and edit that.

[Geoffrey S]

I think this is absolutely insane. Sling shot better against armour than a metal arrowhead? Could you give me one good reason why? On second thoughts, don't bother - no matter what I hear, I guess if I'm ever to play EB again, I'll have to painstakingly go through all the slinger/archer units and edit that.

Try concussive effect of having a large stone slung at you at high speeds. Armour won't protect against that, whereas it does prevent the piercing effect of arrows.

[Sakkura]

I think this is absolutely insane. Sling shot better against armour than a metal arrowhead? Could you give me one good reason why? On second thoughts, don't bother - no matter what I hear, I guess if I'm ever to play EB again, I'll have to painstakingly go through all the slinger/archer units and edit that.

Because flexible armor like mail mainly prevents penetration by sharp objects, but does not protect much against blunt force trauma. While something like a breastplate (muscled cuirass included) provides pretty good protection against sling bullets, the armor might be dented in a way that would make it difficult to breathe with the armor properly attached - thus hindering the wearer or even forcing him to discard a piece of armor.

[Karo]

I think this is absolutely insane. Sling shot better against armour than a metal arrowhead? Could you give me one good reason why? On second thoughts, don't bother - no matter what I hear, I guess if I'm ever to play EB again, I'll have to painstakingly go through all the slinger/archer units and edit that.

Stone or led bullets damage the armour or if your wearing mail it crushes your chest. But amour can keep arrows away.

[Watchman]

Yeah. A decent comparision, I think, would be spear- or sword-thrust contra a solid blow from a mace.

...it wasn't all that unusual AFAIK for armourers and their customers to be in the opinion that it just wasn't worth the trouble, weight and expense to try to craft a harness that could reliably resist the latter.

[Michaelis]

Stone or led bullets damage the armour or if your wearing mail it crushes your chest. But amour can keep arrows away.

Sure, sure. This is why the English abandoned the bow sometime in the early Middle Ages and introduced a new type of ranged attack infantry - Brawny Slingers.

Dream on.

[Geoffrey S]

Sure, sure. This is why the English abandoned the bow sometime in the early Middle Ages and introduced a new type of ranged attack infantry - Brawny Slingers.

Dream on.

Longbows, and also composite bows and crossbows, offer a different set of advantages and are certainly not comparable with standard bows in use in EBs timeframe and in most of Western Europe throughout the Middle Ages. Technology changed and improved bows, and slings went out of fashion.

Stones could be slung with a higher velocity and with greater weight than arrows could be fired at the time. Try imagining having a half-kilo weight slung at you: whatever armour you're wearing, that's going to hurt.

Dream on, indeed.

[Spendios]

Sure, sure. This is why the English abandoned the bow sometime in the early Middle Ages and introduced a new type of ranged attack infantry - Brawny Slingers.

Dream on.

Some people have been nice to give you explanations, if you disagree with them you can express it without using arrogant and insulting tone.

[Kham]

Sure, sure. This is why the English abandoned the bow sometime in the early Middle Ages and introduced a new type of ranged attack infantry - Brawny Slingers.

Dream on.

I absolutely second Spendios.

And there have been several extensive threads about "Slingers overpowered" or "slingshot vs. arrows", which exhaustively discussed the issue, including links to experiments, citations from original texts and whatever else you like. So no need to hijack this post. And change it into the exact thing it tries to explain. Please use the search function instead.

[Intranetusa]

the Cretan slingers are using a strong composite bow, so I don't understand when levy slingers get more kills than them... :/

[Danest]

Many, many bows from this time are "weenies", much weaker than people are imagining. And most slings from this time are throwing the rock much, much faster (faster than the arrow, I believe) than most people are imagining as well... these aren't Bart Simpson's "Y" slingshot. If an arrow doesn't penetrate the armor, you barely feel it. If the rock doesn't penetrate the armor, you still feel the weight/speed of the impact. And unless the arrowhead was of very good metal, the pointy little tip might just bend or "squish" on impact against strong armor and still not be felt much, even if you could fire it with enough force.

[geala]

This is not true. Many bows of the EB timeframe were of composite construction with sinews and horn reinforcements. The bows were roughly as strong as in the later times. A typical arrow of such a bow would weight 40 to 60 g. and travel with 45 to 55 m/s. A typical lead sling bullet would weight 30 to 60 g. and travel with 50 to 60 m/s. Do you really think that the difference in energy and terminal ballistics would be so great?

We had the slinger discussion before, as it was said in this thread already. Use the search function. In the case of slingers EB is wrong and right imho. Slingers were not better against armour. A little research can prove this.

But EB is a game and some compromises have to be accepted. There are a lot unit designs with small historical problems. Often this is due to the TW game design, no way to do it better. So, if slingers and archers would have the same performance in terminal ballistics (like in reality) it would be boring, wouldn't it? And the slingers of 1.0 are much better (because they are worse) than in 0.8x.

To the topic: the factions are very well designed. I don't see any problem with over-/underpowered factions. Some "problems" perhaps come from the historical background and it is a pleasure that there is a certain diversity in EB. A total balance would be nonsense.

[Tellos Athenaios]

They wouldn't; I can assure you beforehand.

The bullet is mostly about the equation: m*delta(v)=F*delta(t)

(I do not have all the proper symbols such as the delta symbol on hand, so bear with me.)

The arrow on the other hand is much more about the equation: 0.5*m*v*v=F*s*cos(alpha);

In other words: delta(p)=S versus E(kinetic)=W.

[geala]

So, you got me. I don't understand anything, and of course I'm sure something, or even more, is there to be understood.

The conclusison is clear, I should better stay away from math.

[Danest]

I didn't say that ALL bows were weenies, only that many were, such as those awful toxotai hellenic archers (what, like a 2 attack or something like that, without AP?) ... ick. So those are probably the ones that the original poster was complaining about. The stronger composite bows fare better than slings against no-armor troops such as the nubian spearmen, in my experience.

[Intranetusa]

Those Yuehzi horse archers should use fairly powerful bows - they would've used something similar to the Hun/Xiongnu bows and would've almost been as powerful as the ungodly Mongolian composite recurved reflex bow.

[NeoSpartan]

---Pissed off, angry post directed to Michaelis
---content of the post for everyone else.

IF you paid attention to the game you will see arrows kill MORE UNARMORED guys than slingers.

BUT heavily armored guys like Cataphacts (sp) tend to take a more casualties against slingers. Not a whole lot, about 10 dead horsies for ALL the sling shots (yes all munition was used, tested by me and madmatg).

WHY?? Because the armor can stop the arrows from piercing but the slings can cause consusions and blunt trauma.

Those are the 2 extremes, with inbetween armor units its going to vary. Normaly guys with 9 armor took about the same casualties of Celtic Singers and Cretians back in .81 when slingers HAD MORE AMMO and a little HIGHER attack.

p.s Pissed off post directed to Michaelis

[Thaatu]

Michaelis, now you've done it. One thing you should learn is not to piss off NeoSpartan! You have no idea what he's like when he's mad.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Look at those eyes man! LOOK AT THEM!! Like Achilles, except slightly more drunk.

[Tellos Athenaios]

And you better keep yourself in check should it be Halloween or close to it: he is quoted to go Gaesatae at those moments....

Anyway now for the more serious remark I intended to make before Thaatu distracted me with the memories of slightly disturbing threads ...

Based on my own gameplay experience:
-archers tend to be very effective on their own compared to slingers;
-two units (or preferably more) of slinger firing at targets from different angles make for a more effective combination than two archer units doing the same;
-the combination of flaming arrows (the arrows causes massive moral drops) + sling bullets (nearly every bullet equals a hit, equals a potential kill) is particularly powerful against armour or against massed crowds (i.e. on bridges, in the streets);
-flaming arrows are rather devastating against lightly armed enemies; but from time to time (mostly when they got *big* shields) you will do better without the flames;
-slingers are particularly good against units with *big* shields.

[Treverer]

First: Happy birthday, Thaatu!

Second: I remember you'd never post again as you posting-number reached "911"?? ;-)

Yours, T.

and now:

[Tellos Athenaios]

Bovi was staging a betting game: bet how long it takes Thaatu to post again... guess what: Thaatu participated.

[Treverer]

Bovi was staging a betting game: bet how long it takes Thaatu to post again... guess what: Thaatu participated.

(No offence, dear Thaatu)

T.

[Thaatu]

Thanks. Next try on the 999th.

[Treverer]

Thanks. Next try on the 999th.

Good luck !!