Greek Hopolites with a twist

[Denbo]

Just before my thread gets locked again by an over eager admin, let me ask the same question again.

Were there Greek Hopolites made up entirely of gay lovers? The reason I ask this is because I have just watched a documentary on Sparta and they talked about a battle where the Spartans were defeated by a larger theban force. During this battle there was elite phalanx units made up of men who were lovers and they were noted for their extreme dedication to each other in battle due to the fact they were lovers..

As I said in my other post a man in a phalanx had to trust the guy next to him not to run for the phalanx to keep its cohesion as the over lapping shields meant the guy next to you protected you from the enemy.

If this is historical fact wouldnt it make for another interesting unit the Greeks could use in the next EB patch?

Just a thought and a question because I love this game mod and the hard work EB guys have put into this project to make it so historically accurate.

Your thoughts lads?

Denbo

[Sakkura]

Yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_band_of_thebes

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I believe it was the Thebians who were reported to have a homosexual unit of hoplites. Thebes is dead at EB's point in history.

Sexuality in ancient history is a giant topic, but most people will tell you that the Greeks, including the Spartans, were bisexual in some sense.

[Denbo]

wow thats mental an entire military unit created on sexuality thats genius when you think about it because of the dedication of the troops to each other.

Shame the time line doesnt fit in with EB, could have had a few laughs in battles with these guys never mind the naked barbarians we see in game!

I wonder what their voice mod would have been hehe "Go on Hector, keep your shield up and pass the lippy"

[The Internet]

Our veiw of homosexuality isn't the same as it was in EB's time period, a love between two men was a noble thing to the Greeks as long as it was not purely lust. Although, the Romans were a bit more conserative, for the most part, although there was exceptions, as with most things.

[artavazd]

Our veiw of homosexuality isn't the same as it was in EB's time period, a love between two men was a noble thing to the Greeks as long as it was not purely lust. Although, the Romans were a bit more conserative, for the most part, although there was exceptions, as with most things.

Cultures can change, but you gotta find a mans asshole attractive to be homosexual. Its not noble its gay

[Pharnakes]

Cultures can change, but you gotta find a mans asshole attractive to be homosexual. Its not noble its gay

Okay, it is gay, but there is nothing inherntly wrong with that. Maybe it is noble? Why not?

[bovi]

People will do many things contrary to sense, or their nature, to increase their status. Such as buying a near useless, fancy car for much more money than they can afford without complications, or homosexuals creating families and having children for the sake of appearing "normal". As those in the latter example have been doing so for centuries in christian culture condemning the practice, I don't see why some heterosexuals wouldn't bend the other way in a culture that looked up to homosexuality.

[Watchman]

What one reads of the matter suggests it was more of a normative thing - behaviour considered for diverse convoluted reasons appropriate for men in certain positions. AFAIK both the Greeks and the Romans were quite hierarchy-conscious around the issue too; it being more or less acceptable or even commendable for a man in a status of seniority to be, to use yaoi parlance, the seme ("top") in such a relationship and for the junior (in terms of age, social status, whatevah) partner the uke ("bottom"). Going about it the other way - the "senior" partner as the "bottom" - was apparently considered right peculiar.

The Japanese warrior class seems to have had similar practices and norms, and more-or-less comparable traditions in diverse at least partially ritual contexts apparently haven't been all that uncommon in other cultures, particularly warrior circles, either by what I've read of anthropology.

[keravnos]

Just before my thread gets locked again by an over eager admin, let me ask the same question again.

Were there Greek Hopolites made up entirely of gay lovers? The reason I ask this is because I have just watched a documentary on Sparta and they talked about a battle where the Spartans were defeated by a larger theban force. During this battle there was elite phalanx units made up of men who were lovers and they were noted for their extreme dedication to each other in battle due to the fact they were lovers..

As I said in my other post a man in a phalanx had to trust the guy next to him not to run for the phalanx to keep its cohesion as the over lapping shields meant the guy next to you protected you from the enemy.

If this is historical fact wouldnt it make for another interesting unit the Greeks could use in the next EB patch?

Just a thought and a question because I love this game mod and the hard work EB guys have put into this project to make it so historically accurate.

Your thoughts lads?

Denbo

I will respond to this, but not now as my sis is getting married.

Some prelim. answers...

1. Ancient greeks were pretty open about sexuality issues as can be seen on their statues.

2. Homophobia wasn't something that existed back then. A lot of people existed who would do ANYTHING for money/power, men or women. As ancient greeks kept their women sequestered, that left men "ready for everything".

3. Romani propaganda at its finest. First thing you hear so far as Ancient greeks is concerned is that Thebans were all gays, and Alexander the greek was gay, and he wasn't a greek to begin with etc. Not many speak of the fact that Trajan, the greatest Romani emperor for me, was a pedophile who couldn't keep his hands off any boy he met. That for me means nothing, as I consider the man and his actions in history, NOT his sexual orientation.

4. Denbo, try to understand that most people consider the ones living next to them as smelly, ugly, bigoted, liars, gays, etc. To speak for something close at home, what you "lads" consider the "frogs". It has to do with the "us against them" ideology.

5. Arts, Mathematics, Statues, Music, Epics, city building, architecture, engineering, catapults, scorpions, tetremes, mosaics, etc. Look up who invented those. Once you do, research the term "reverse superiority complex" or "inferiority complex". It's a good start to understand.

6. Ancient History we have is mostly Romani propaganda. Celts and Qarthadastim are a prime example. The first weren't savages and the second didn't sacrifice their children. Still, Romani propaganda says so, it became history, thus all is judged by that. as the saying goes...WINNER TAKES IT ALL, or as the Romani would put it... "Woe to the vanquished".

7. EB if anything tries to "shake off" Romani propaganda so that the truth might emerge about all those magnificent people, the Celts, the Qarthadastim, the sweboz, the Pahlavan, even those puny people whose civilization is often thought of as Romani, the Greeks.

8. If you are going to make something up about someone and post it, at least write their name right. It is HOPLITES, not hopolites.

[Denbo]

On point 8, its a shame you didnt read the link posted by the guy who posted after my first initial post in the threat, as you would see I wasnt making it up and that there really was a phalanx unit called the Sacred Band of Thebes that was made up of homosexual lovers for the reason I outlined. They defeated a Spartan army as part of a larger Theban army that faced the Spartans on open battle.

[Redmeth]

On point 8, its a shame you didnt read the link posted by the guy who posted after my first initial post in the threat, as you would see I wasnt making it up and that there really was a phalanx unit called the Sacred Band of Thebes that was made up of homosexual lovers for the reason I outlined. They defeated a Spartan army as part of a larger Theban army that faced the Spartans on open battle.

You honestly believe Keravnos doesn't know about the Thebans?

[Sakkura]

3. Romani propaganda at its finest. First thing you hear so far as Ancient greeks is concerned is that Thebans were all gays, and Alexander the greek was gay, and he wasn't a greek to begin with etc. Not many speak of the fact that Trajan, the greatest Romani emperor for me, was a pedophile who couldn't keep his hands off any boy he met. That for me means nothing, as I consider the man and his actions in history, NOT his sexual orientation.

Well the Romans weren't homophobic like the people of the industrial revolution are/were. So there wouldn't be much point in them making up a story about the Sacred Band of Thebes being gay.

Besides, AFAIK they were described in very positive terms during Roman times. The Romans had no reason to make up propaganda against the Thebans, especially not the Sacred Band which was wiped out by Macedon - not exactly the best friends of Rome. As they say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[Karo]

My opinion is the same as that of Artavazd on this one.

[Maksimus]

I would say that the Olimpic games were 'homosexual' ina way actually, you had Olimpic villages that were 'closed' .. then we have many Greek units and armies that had gay's there, even Spartans were gays but just some of them.... Like in Nomad's land and Scythia - we have Women fighting by their Men .. The same is In some African tribes or if you see the Army of Israel.. i think that girls make men fight more no matter what!

[Pharnakes]

What is it with Armenians and Homosexuality?

Do you people have a very homophobic society, or something?