Another Benefit of Sharia Law: Lash those rape victims!

[Divinus Arma]

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

A court in the ultra-conservative kingdom of Saudi Arabia is punishing a female victim of gang rape with 200 lashes and six months in jail, a newspaper reported on Thursday.
The 19-year-old woman -- whose six armed attackers have been sentenced to jail terms -- was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

But in a new verdict issued after Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council ordered a retrial, the court in the eastern town of Al-Qatif more than doubled the number of lashes to 200.

[PanzerJaeger]

[FactionHeir]

Not exactly nice (by Western standards), but if the law in her country says that you cannot be in another guy's car unless you are related, then she was asking for it (the punishment, not the rape) really.

As per the article, not only was her sentence raised (for trying to influence the judiciary via media campaigns), but that of her attackers' (sentence was found too lenient) as well.

Still, hopefully she will get counselling.

[Geoffrey S]

Not exactly nice (by Western standards), but if the law in her country says that you cannot be in another guy's car unless you are related, then she was asking for it (the punishment, not the rape) really.

...

Still, hopefully she will get counselling.

Boggles belief. Counselling?

[FactionHeir]

Boggles belief. Counselling?

Rape victims should get counselling (if they want it that is). Don't you agree?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Panzer:

You really should brush up a bit on particulars.

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, even in its naming, is a wholly-owned concern of the Saud family. It isn't -- quite -- an absolute monarchy, but at a minimum you'd need to label it an oligarchy dominated by one family.

I've heard people describe the Saud family in terms that were far too close to the fictitious Corleone family.


You are correct in that most of the populist opposition in SA are actually reactionary and not revolutionary in character. I haven't read anything about a group of would-be Roundheads cropping up (though others may correct me here if I have missed it).

EA:

Regime change -- Magna Carta at least if not Cromwell -- would be something to work for, I agree. Bit difficult to get started when the only apparent groups on the ground to take up the reins make the Al Queda network look like a group of candy-assed liberals.

Not to mention the economic hiccough caused by all that oil going off line for a few months or years. I'm ALREADY paying enough extra at the pump to enrich the lives of a few thousand oil futures investors....

[Geoffrey S]

Rape victims should get counselling (if they want it that is). Don't you agree?

I just found the combination of essentially saying she got what she deserved (ie. punishment), but that she should get counseling (what? for the rape or the lashes) a bit curious to say the least.

[Andres]

Not exactly nice (by Western standards), but if the law in her country says that you cannot be in another guy's car unless you are related, then she was asking for it (the punishment, not the rape) really.

How about universal human rights...

A long but very interesting article. Take the time to read it to the end.

The Declaration of Human Rights vs. The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam

Article 6
(a) Woman is equal to man in human dignity, and has rights to enjoy as well as duties to perform; she has her own civil entity and financial independence, and the right to retain her name and lineage.

[InsaneApache]

Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger
I am saying that the Saudis do not have the means or resources to impose their will on a completely unsupportive populace. Its on the "tin-pot" side as opposed to the Iron Clad stalinist police states.

It was Saudis that fly a jet into building.

[FactionHeir]

Andres

Article 6
(a) Woman is equal to man in human dignity, and has rights to enjoy as well as duties to perform; she has her own civil entity and financial independence, and the right to retain her name and lineage.

The part you quoted doesn't seem to mention anything regarding "the right to drive a car" or "being with men unassociated to her". What it does say, is that she has equal in human dignity (which includes only the very basic things), has "rights to enjoy" (which are not specified) and that she has "her own civil entity and financial independence etc" (which are not applicable for this particular case)

Of course those things may be natural in the West, but they don't tend to be there, and it is not upon one culture/nation/group of nations to force their beliefs/values/views onto another. Again, it may not be "right" here, but it is there.

[Andres]

FH, the main purpose of my post was to put the notion of Cultural Relativism vs the notion of Universal Human Rights and the question if there can be such a thing as Universal Human Rights.

The article I linked to, gives some very interesting viewpoints.

Of course those things may be natural in the West, but they don't tend to be there, and it is not upon one culture/nation/group of nations to force their beliefs/values/views onto another. Again, it may not be "right" here, but it is there.

The problem with the culture argument is that it subsumes all members of a society under a cultural framework that may in fact be inimical to them. It is one thing to advocate the cultural argument with an escape clause, that is, one that does not seek to coerce the dissenters but permits individuals to opt out and to assert their individual rights. Those who freely choose to live by and to be treated according to their traditional cultures are welcome to do so, provided others who wish to be free are not oppressed in the name of a culture they prefer to disavow.

It needs to be emphasized that the objections that are voiced to specific (allegedly Western) rights very frequently involve the rights of women, and are usually vociferously argued by men. Even conceding, for argument's sake, that child marriage, widow inheritance, female circumcision, and the like are not found reprehensible by many societies, how do the victims of these practices feel about them? How many teenage girls who have had their genitalia mutilated would have agreed to undergo circumcision if they had the human right to refuse to permit it? For me, the standard is simple: where coercion exists, rights are violated, and these violations must be condemned whatever the traditional justification. So it is not culture that is the test, it is coercion.

In any case, freedom is not a value found only in Western faiths: it is highly prized in Buddhism and in different aspects of Hinduism and Islam.

If religion cannot be fairly used to sanction oppression, it should be equally obvious that authoritarianism promotes repression, not development. Development is about change, but repression prevents change.

Tolerance and mercy have always, and in all cultures, been ideals of government rule and human behavior. If we do not unequivocally assert the universality of the rights that oppressive governments abuse, and if we admit that these rights can be diluted and changed, ultimately we risk giving oppressive governments an intellectual justification for the morally indefensible. Objections to the applicability of international human rights standards have all too frequently been voiced by authoritarian rulers and power elites to rationalize their violations of human rightsŽviolations that serve primarily, if not solely, to sustain them in power.

Granted, it goes a bit further then the present case at hand, but it's an interesting read.

Anyway, regardless of one's culture, giving a woman 200 lashes because she was in a car with another man, cannot be justified imo. It is not... human

[HoreTore]

You need to learn the difference between muslims and their government. You don't vote for neither dictatorships nor monarchies, you know...

[PanzerJaeger]

You need to learn the difference between muslims and their government. You don't vote for neither dictatorships nor monarchies, you know...

Saudi Arabia is no police state a la Soviet Russia... if a majority wanted things different, they would be different.

Unfortunately, the only popular movements seem to be for even stricter islamic law a la Al Queda.

I don't buy the argument that there are throngs of moderate muslims waiting for liberation from their oppressive governments. It certainly didn't happen in Iraq.

It'd be interesting to see some polls on how the Saudis feel about their law codes.

Yeah, in the same way that the Westboro Baptist Church encapsulates everything that is wrong and disgusting about christians, or Adolf Hitler encapsulates everything that is wrong and disgusting about northern Europeans.

The Westboro Baptist Church does not represent the law of the United States and Adolf Hitler did encapsulate the views of many Northern Europeans..... 70 years ago!

[HoreTore]

Saudi Arabia is no police state a la Soviet Russia... if a majority wanted things different, they would be different.

No? They've got a special police force, use torture, hereditary rule, censorship, complete control of the army, etc... It's an absolute monarchy, for crying out loud!

Unfortunately, the only popular movements seem to be for even stricter islamic law a la Al Queda.

So the reason why saudi arabia is actually getting more relaxed on the despotism is because of what then? And I'll laugh if you say "international pressure".

I don't buy the argument that there are throngs of moderate muslims waiting for liberation from their oppressive governments. It certainly didn't happen in Iraq.

People tend to rally against a foreign invader simply because they're foreign. Overthrow the government without ruining the country in an invasion, then we'll talk.

It'd be interesting to see some polls on how the Saudis feel about their law codes.

Won't happen, because, you know, these things are censored by the state... But I suppose censorship is not a sign of a police state...

Adolf Hitler did encapsulate the views of many Northern Europeans..... 70 years ago!

Unfortunately, he still has a fair few supporters here. And they're currently on the rise, especially in russia...

[English assassin]

Panzer, you actually know nothing at all about Saudi Arabia, do you?

Here's a link: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/

And this is to save you the bother:

No dissent allowed

Anyone brave enough to voice dissent in Saudi Arabia is likely to end up in jail for a very long time and suffer other violations of their basic human rights. The reason is simple. The government does not allow any criticisms of its policies or any independent thought or activity that might challenge the status quo.

.

[Husar]

homo-erotic deserts.

Well, you could at least care about the woman who is about to get 200 lashes after getting raped.

Then again if women there were very strict and would never enter a man's car or even hang out with men, forcing men to either break the law themselves or live in celibacy, then maybe the men would want to have those laws changed sometime.
Yeah, I know, great plan, will definitely work, but then the plan with the army is a bit worse since the army is currently very busy giving freedom to Iraqi women and the other "armies" aren't up to the task anyway.

[English assassin]

Yeah, in the same way that the Westboro Baptist Church encapsulates everything that is wrong and disgusting about christians, or Adolf Hitler encapsulates everything that is wrong and disgusting about northern Europeans.

So, when are we going to do the regime thing in Saudi? Oh, wait,....

[Fragony]

Couldn't care less how they run their homo-erotic deserts.

[IrishArmenian]

Either that, or their government, but you're probably right.
Now, who wants to go blame Russians for their governments crimes?

[Ice]

Ugh. When I read these articles I wish we could produce more of our own domestic fuel so wouldn't have to trade with these monsters.

[Prodigal]

Hmmmmmm....Daisy replacements bad I guesss, anyway...What I said has to be right, there's only 2 other people on this threads that aren't n00bers...And of course either one, or, (worse), both may have beards!!!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hmmmmmm....Daisy replacements bad I guesss, anyway...What I said has to be right, there's only 2 other people on this threads that aren't n00bers...And of course either one, or, (worse), both may have beards!!!

Sorry, didn't understand this.

[Navaros]

This thread title is highly misleading and sensational.

She was not sentenced to punishment for being raped.

Rather, she was sentenced to punishment for committing a crime of her own.

[HoreTore]

This thread title is highly misleading and sensational.

She was not sentenced to punishment for being raped.

Rather, she was sentenced to punishment for committing a crime of her own.

Quite true. If you get raped, and at the same time you get a parking ticket for your car, that ticket won't go away because you got raped.

what inbreeding screws people up?

Apparently, they also make excellent heads of states.

[Geoffrey S]

Quite true. If you get raped, and at the same time you get a parking ticket for your car, that ticket won't go away because you got raped.

Possibly, but I'm still trying to work out where it says she was in the car voluntarily, and not, you know, dragged in by her rapists...?

[Husar]

Quite true. If you get raped, and at the same time you get a parking ticket for your car, that ticket won't go away because you got raped.

That, however, as true as it may be, completely ignores the emotional and psychological consequences of being raped as well as the inhumanity of being lashed for what I'd consider a minor crime. In combination, it's even worse.

[Tribesman]

Possibly, but I'm still trying to work out where it says she was in the car voluntarily, and not, you know, dragged in by her rapists...?

Well that would be easy to work out , was the person she was in the car with also sentanced for breaking the law but not sentanced for being a kidnapper or rapist like the other people who were involved .

[PanzerJaeger]

That, however, as true as it may be, completely ignores the emotional and psychological consequences of being raped as well as the inhumanity of being lashed for what I'd consider a minor crime. In combination, it's even worse.

A minor crime? Sick muslim law at its worst. Don't fall victim to moral relativism..

[HoreTore]

A minor crime? Sick muslim law at its worst. Don't fall victim to moral relativism..

Sick Saudi Arabian law, Panzer... Haven't seen any other countries with that law...

[Husar]

A minor crime? Sick muslim law at its worst. Don't fall victim to moral relativism..

What do you think would be easier to convince your ally of, lowering the sentence to a day in prison or dumping the complete law? So far they haven't done either and you apparently refuse to bomb and liberate them so...