Out of character thread XVI

[TinCow]

*faints*

Swabia is doomed...

Franconia and Bavaria aren't doing so well either. I took a gamble and sent Lothar to hold Milan with his army. I am now stuck and will have to face the gold stack when they assault. There's a huge difference between the 3 walls of a citadel and 1 wall of a city.

[Privateerkev]

Franconia and Bavaria aren't doing so well either. I took a gamble and sent Lothar to hold Milan with his army. I am now stuck and will have to face the gold stack when they assault. There's a huge difference between the 3 walls of a citadel and 1 wall of a city.

Your not the only one who gambled with their avatar this turn. Your in good company.

[Zim]

I don't know about Deguerra, but after looking at the save and seeing all those horrible French and Danish armies in and around Swabia, I'm not sure I'm chomping at the bit for something that will lower my character's life expectancy even further.

Of course, it's up to Prinz Hummel and von Salza, not lowly grunts like my character.

P.S. Duchy of Flanders, Warluster?

That's why I made my last post - I don't want anyone stop fighting just because the gamemaster's avatar says so. We have had two new players join Hummel and they may be chewing at the bit to continue the civil war. Ignoramus may also want to take advantage of Bern. That's fine.

Elberhard's proclamation is just in character stuff - he would try to call a pause at this point (he could not do so before, as Hans had the harsh justice trait and so wanted to prosecute the civil war).

The proclamation is also aimed at Prague, where another internal conflict is brewing.

[Ignoramus]

Austria's gotten off lightly; they haven't even lost Budapest yet.

[Warluster]

P.S. Duchy of Flanders, Warluster?

Well seeing as it can't be Principility of Swabia, has to be something else. I've heard it called that a few times as before as well.

EDIT: Just remembered, I saw the name on a PM sent to me by someone.

[Zim]

I get the reasoning, I'm just a bit surprised. Giving it a name like that almost makes it sound more legitamate than if you had offered to keep theceasefire with, say, "the rebel Principality".

I really like the sound of it. The Duchy of Flanders

Well seeing as it can't be Principility of Swabia, has to be something else. I've heard it called that a few times as before as well.

[econ21]

I am sorry we are losing Tamur, but understand his reasons - thanks for making Fritz a vivid character!

Ramses II CP: a recruitable general was hired for you, but I think it would be much better if you took over Fritz as you agreed to. I know you wanted to play a loyalist, but reading Tamur's latest posts, it seems that the Lutheran firebrand is regretting his earlier excesses, so buckling down and serving loyally would be in character. Especially as his fellow rebel, Peter, is going to be made Prinz soon.

So Zim and Deguerra, you have the pick of the three spare avatars that were spawned last turn. I have updated the playlist to the best of my ability and entered the three as Swabians:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...81&postcount=1

I would you like you both to rank them in order of preference and I will assign them, giving first pick to Zim on a first come, first served basis. I need you both to make a choice asap or I will make it for you.

If you want to play a chivalrous character, you might put Ludwig Von Bohmen as your number 1. His stats will also give him extra influence in Diet votes.

Jan von der Pfalz has the highest command and is a blank slate as regards chivalry and dread (that choice tends to mean quite a lot in the KotR role-playing).

Jens Merode looks the least appealing character, but he shares his surname with Huho Merode, the slain general of the Lutheran Relief Army. So if you want a ready made backstory for why you are siding with Hummel vs the Swabian loyalists, put him number 1. He is also embarking on the dreadful path.

I have marked where the characters spawn in the table in the Count column, but they are not Counts of those places. It is just for information. TinCow can use the console to teleport you, so the location should not be important. Just because you start in Nuremburg, it does mean you will be out of things in Swabia - you can be moved over easily.

Also, just because Jan spawned in Bern, it does not mean he gets command of the loyalist army or Hans' treasury! I expect TC will move him out sharpish.

[deguerra]

1.Ludwig
2.Jan
3. Jens

for me thanks

[econ21]

Having looked at the savegame, I must say the cataclysm is working out just as we hoped. All the Houses, and Outremer, have been reduced considerably and the pressure the AI is putting us under is now palpable. I have some ideas for how we can maintain the challenge post-cataclysm and will post them soon.

One idea I would like to throw out about Swabia OOC is the following. The House is imploding and the AI is finally taking advantage of the internal divisions. The balance of forces between Hummel and the loyalists seems rather even, so a compromise seems possible. In the short term, a ceasefire or something would be enough. In the longer term, one possiblity is to keep Swabia whole but have a "third way" Duke - neither Hummel nor Von Salza. OOC, I would suggest Zim. I know from his PBMs that he is a reliable player who can organise things and keep active. I think OOC he would a good Duke. Coming in with a new avatar and fairly blank slate, he might be agreeable as a compromise figure. I am just mentioning it OOC, as my motivation is largely OOC. Both Ignoramus and von Salza get rather busy from time to time, frequently missing deadlines in PBMs. This hinders their OOC ability to take on a role such as Duke, plus their IC conflict makes that they would be willing to bow down to each other.

This is just a suggestion. A Duchy of Flanders would be a perfectly acceptable solution. I think the PBM is ready for a more "messy" allocation of provinces to Houses and indeed to weaken the four House structure. It is just that Hummel may well have to reconquer Flanders from the AI in order to get his fourth House and he may not have the resources to do so.

[AussieGiant]

9 months and 7 international flights have never seen so much going in!!!

I'm off line for about 40 hours and I'm still trying to work out what's just happened :-)

The battle at Bern by itself is indication enough that we have all done a great job in agreeing to artificially create this mess.

[TinCow]

I have marked where the characters spawn in the table in the Count column, but they are not Counts of those places. It is just for information. TinCow can use the console to teleport you, so the location should not be important. Just because you start in Nuremburg, it does mean you will be out of things in Swabia - you can be moved over easily.

Also, just because Jan spawned in Bern, it does not mean he gets command of the loyalist army or Hans' treasury! I expect TC will move him out sharpish.

Both of the Swabians will start in Antwerp, no matter who they are. Their location in the save right now is not important. They spawned in multiple places because I had to use Huge Cities that would not be besieged during the AI turn.

This is another problem that arises from looking at a save that is not remotely finalized.

[Ramses II CP]

Fritz it is! Contrition will be the order of the day.

[Privateerkev]

Let me present an OOC defense of an Athawolf Duke. I agree that Warluster skips deadlines and I am sure Zim will be an active player. But...

1.) Warluster got screwed out of being Kaiser by a stray catapult shot. Holding out and being loyal to Hans was his shot at playing a Duke. He kept his end of the bargain IC so he is entitled to it IMHO.

2.) Zim is playing an RBG. Currently, RBG's can't be dukes because they are out of the family tree. On a strictly OOC level, I like this because it encourages more people to take avatars in the family tree. It is why I am staying in the family tree and I strongly suspect it is why GH is as well, claims of "self-punishment" not withstanding. It seems we're both trying to become Duke in our respective Houses.

The point is, a claim on a Dukeship is one of the few rewards left for staying in the family tree and keeping to the family tree is good for the game. While the RBG's are a nice "stop-gap" measure, the family tree provides some rich role-playing dynamics and family politics. Keeping Dukeships "in the family" is one of the few reasons to persuade people to wait around as a generic elector until their family tree avatar comes of age.

(Also treating RBG's unfairly could provide for some great drama later on. Men of a "lesser sort" overthrowing the nobility, in order to claim equal treatment, is an old tradition.) ^_^

[Tamur]

Contrition will be the order of the day.

Ha! Looking forward to that. He's been a bad boy

[econ21]

Let me present an OOC defense of an Athawolf Duke. ...

PK, those are good points. I was just throwing the idea out for Ignoramus and Warluster to think on. We can let the Swabians debate it IC. If they go for it, it may require a Charter Amendment (I had not thought about the Dukes must be on the family tree constraint). But then so would a number of other peace deals (eg a Duchy of Flanders).

[TinCow]

Currently, RBG's can't be dukes because they are out of the family tree.

I don't know where you're getting that from. I see nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

[Ferret]

Yeah, happens a lot with AI reinforcing armies in a siege. They tend to just get stuck and wait for the timer to run out (meaning they lose). I think you can usually nudge them by taking out some of their missile troops/artillery in melee, but that isn't always easy.

I did actually sally to kill the men on the ram which ended up very messy as I couldn't get the gates to close again but I eventually killed all their infantry and then the rest of them just stood still. I also sent out a unit if crossbowmen which meant that one of their units came to sit in front of their towers but, good sport as I am , I abandoned the walls and sent out Dieter and his guard to get some experience.

Now the only problem is working out how Dieter will react to the death of Jan, i may have him sally out to his death or sneak away to exact revenge on Dietrich supporters, plenty of options .

[Privateerkev]

I don't know where you're getting that from. I see nothing in the rules that restricts who can be Duke and who cannot.

It seems to be inherent in section 4. A holdover from the beginning of the game when Dietrich von Saxony, Maximillian Mandorf, and Otto von Kassel were Generals outside of the family tree.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

4.1 There will be four houses representing the four main branches of the family tree: Franconia (north), Swabia (west), Austria (east) or Bavaria (south). At the start of the game, Prince Henry is Duke of Swabia and Leopold is Duke of Austria. The Dukes of Franconia and Bavaria have not yet been spawned (they will be the two males who take positions under the Emperor in the family tree).

4.2 Bavaria and Franconia have no Duke yet, so there are Stewards to act in their place until them. Until there is a Duke, they receive the +2 influence of a Duke.

Charter Amendment 3.1: Stewards may bestow the rank of Count on nobles of their House. This Amendment does not give Stewards any other Ducal power, it does not give Stewards additional Influence, nor does it allow Stewards to be Counts themselves.

The Stewards themselves are not Counts. Like Otto in Innsbruck, they are just soldiers, self-made men of lesser station [think Denethor in Lord of the Rings]. They could be rewarded by being made a Count by their Duke when he spawns, though. And they could marry into the Royal line, potentially becoming the Duke themselves.

Therefore, we seem to have a rule that says that a Duke can only come from the family tree. In my opinion, this is a good thing. We're roleplaying a system of fuedalism and limiting certain titles to "nobles" is part of that. I want us to treat the RBG's unfairly. RBG's are men of a "lesser sort" and are not eligible for certain titles/rights.

Now, RBG's can (and should) resent this and could band together to change the Charter. This has happened in history before. An overstretched empire needs to rely more and more on men from the lower classes. Those lower classes then agitate for more rights. Could lead to a revolution or at least legislative reform. Either way I think it would be fun!

[Zim]

Since Deguerra would like to play Ludwig, I'll take Jan von der Pfalz. His mid-level in everything stats make him seem like I could take him anywhere roleplaying.

I'll catch up on the rest of the thread right now, jus wanted to get that done quickly as Econ asked.

[econ21]

OK, so it is confirmed.

Ramses II CP takes on Fritz von Kastilien

Zim takes on Jan von der Pfalz

Deguerra takes on Ludwig von Bohmen

I've updated the playlist.

[Zim]

I have to say, I'm quite surprised by Econ's suggestion (and his kind words).
If Warluster and Ignoramus are ok with it, I would be happy to have Jan take up the dukeship, or stewardship of Swabia. It is up to them and the diet, however. Both of their characters have better IC reaons to be duke. At best, Jan would be a compromise.

As an aside, I also support OOC the "Duchy of Flanders" idea, as long as that Duchy is recognized to include Caen, whether or not it has fallen.

P.S. Don't forget my character's pointy spear wielding compatriots, Tincow. I think, given the situation, he'll need them.

[Stuperman]

I have to agree with PK, I think Warluster should have right of first refusal, no offence Zim, but I find it hard to justify getting an RGBG appointed Duke of Swabia.

[TinCow]

It seems to be inherent in section 4. A holdover from the beginning of the game when Dietrich von Saxony, Maximillian Mandorf, and Otto von Kassel were Generals outside of the family tree.

I fully disagree. Those rules were specifically designed to deal with the situation at the start of the game, as is obvious from their language. Given that I was Maximillian Mandorf, I am very much familiar with the purpose of that rule when it was written. I am against inventing rules where they do not exist, especially when they hurt the game. The way the rules are written, we should not even be allowing recruitable generals at all, but we are because it is better for the game. Given the large number of recruitable generals we are now using, I think that restricting Dukedoms to family members will have a detrimental impact on KOTR. It is not the players' fault that there are no avatars available for them and as we have seen, having people sit around and do nothing while waiting for one is a poor solution. Ask Northnovas about it.

Remember also that it is now essentially impossible for recruitable generals to be adopted. Due to territory losses from the cataclysm, we have far more family members than provinces and as such no new births or adoptions are likely to happen anytime soon. We are also not far off from ending KOTR; I would guess 2-3 more Chancellorships. Thus we have a situation in which new players can take a recruitable general, but are forced to be totally barred from significant political advancement, or wait for a new avatar which may result in them getting only a few turns of play time before the entire game ends. That is very unfair and will stifle the game.

If you want to restrict Dukedoms to family members, that can be done by a specific Charter Amendment which will leave no room for debate. I do not consider it to be an unclear situation, but if we want to be very sure about it, we can say that it is and have Elberhard (econ21) rule on it in his role as Kaiser. I would then urge him not to restrict it to family members for the reasons I gave above.

[Zim]

Maybe my character could be declared "Steward" for the duration of the Cataclysm, and charged with preventing warring between the two sides and directing the early counter-offenses against the French. This would be a temporary compromise. IC, we would say it was effective until Kaiser Elberhard returns from Antioch (conveniently timed for the endof the Cataclysm).

Then, after the Cataclysm ends(what, five turns?) von Salza would again become Duke(or Hummel if somehow the Diet prefers it), and the argument over a possible Duchy of Flanders would be settled in the Diet.

[Privateerkev]

TC,

My stance is nothing against the players. In the short time I have played with Zim, I have enjoyed very much how "into" the role he gets. Also, I am very much for the Dukes being "active" players. I believe a lot of the problems Swabia and Franconia have, stem from DG and XDeathfire being fairly inactive players when they were Dukes.

I just believe we have a bi-furcated system. Nobles are nobles. Commoners are not. I see the charter as reflecting this. It seems to limit certain titles to nobles. If people want this changed, I think it should be a CA for the next Diet. If we want to roleplay something close to feudalism, then lets show those kind of divides.

I would rather see the "commoners" fight for their rights IC than have them handed to them OOC. It would make for an exciting Diet session and has some precendent in history. It also shows the strain that the cataclysm is showing on the HRE. We are getting pressed for manpower and are forced to recruit more and more men of the "lesser sort". This creates an in-game tension that should be fun and dramatic. The RBG's can unite across House lines and demand to be treated fairly.

"Mid-level generals of the Reich unite!"

[FactionHeir]

I think econ meant for you to become Duke post-cataclysm too.

Anyway, my view on this is that Warluster should stay Duke, as ICly this only makes sense:
Ignoramus' character is for seceding his principality from the empire, while Warluster is for keeping Swabia inside the empire. Giving the Dukeship to a player from either side (there is no "neutral" here) is basically either saying "secede" or "stay", and the other side will be unhappy. However, in the grand scheme of things, it would make more sense for the Duchy to stay with the empire but possibly break into two separate houses, so both Ignoramus and Warluster would end up Duke of each a smaller piece of land.

I also agree with PK's view on things that recruited generals should not be entirely treated as part of the royal family, which is slowly diminishing. Generals thus can also cross house lines and say join another house. See them as mercenaries in a way and they have their own freedom. You can bind them by giving them incentives, but they shouldn't become Duke or Emperor (edit: unless adopted, which is very likely once the cataclysm is over and we rush for land).

[Zim]

I think econ meant for you to become Duke post-cataclysm too.

I know, but I think it would work better as a temporary fix. Things are unstable now, with von Salza and Hummel strongly opposed to eachother. A compromise would help more during the Cataclysm. Later, after order is restored, the Diet can decide on the justice of different proposals and the emperor can just crush any remaining rebellions.

[econ21]

As I said earlier, maybe the Swabians should pursue the issue of a peace settlement in character? The two sides could sort out their positions in their own House/Principality threads, then PM each other or use the IMS? I think it is the kind of thing best done IC.

On another matter, TinCow just mentioned the end of KOTR not being far off. To clarify, this question was raised in a PM exchange between us. We don't have strong feelings - it depends how much fun the game is down the line. However, he did mentioned having a vote on wrapping it up in about 2-3 Chancellorships time - which I guess would be some time early in the new year.

That chrystalises one point I wanted to raise with Privateerkev - I was going to do it by PM, but the OOC thread is as good as any. I was a little shocked to see the age of the avatar you have chosen, Andreas von Hamburg. IIRC, he is 2 years old. Characters age 1 year every 2 turns and come of age at 16. So you would be looking at about 28 turns before you have an avatar. Let's say each turn takes 3 days in real life and you would be looking at three months without an avatar. That just seems like a long time for a very active player to be without an avatar and I was wondering if you would reconsider or adopt a temporary one in the mean time?

For example, we just spawned a Franconian, Jens Merode, who is now not needed by anyone else?

By contrast, Factionheir already has a new avatar. GeneralHankerchief's pick matures around the time of the next Diet, so does not seem to be such a problem. And he has suggested role-playing Luther in the interim.

[Privateerkev]

That chrystalises one point I wanted to raise with Privateerkev - I was going to do it by PM, but the OOC thread is as good as any. I was a little shocked to see the age of the avatar you have chosen, Andreas von Hamburg. IIRC, he is 2 years old. Characters age 1 year every 2 turns and come of age at 16. So you would be looking at about 28 turns before you have an avatar. Let's say each turn takes 3 days in real life and you would be looking at three months without an avatar. That just seems like a long time for a very active player to be without an avatar and I was wondering if you would reconsider or adopt a temporary one in the mean time?

For example, we just spawned a Franconian, Jens Merode, who is now not needed by anyone else?

Good points. Here was the reasoning behind my avatar decision.

A.) I guess I saw the game as going on for longer than 3 Chancellorships. I am up for keeping this game going for a long long time.

B.) I plan on being very active with Alfgarda and have already interjected her into many plots and sub-plots.

C.) I am actually looking for a little bit of a break. I only have 3-4 weeks left in this semester and things are getting busy.

D.) I have been getting involved more with the Kingdoms Hotseat campaigns going on in the Throne Room. I might end up running one of them soon. (like tomorrow) They take less time than KotR but they still eat up limited free time. It is important to me that a vibrant Kingdom Hotseat community develops and I would like to see a campaign make it past turn 5.

So, I love this game and I plan on remaining very active. But not having an avatar allows me a certain amount of flexibility since I don't have to submit orders or fight battles. So, for now, I do not mind remaining avatarless. If I get bored or an opportunity opens up to take a cool avatar, I might jump at it. But for now, I would like the added flexibility.

[TinCow]

Banning RBGs from Dukeships will cause specific problems right now. It means that as Duke of Bavaria, my only options for heir are three players who have already held major positions (Stuperman, who was Duke of Bavaria before me, GeneralHankerchief, who was Kaiser Heinrich and King Conrad Salier, and OverKnight, who was the first Duke of Bavaria). As econ21 has pointed out before, monopolizing positions of power amongst a few select players is not ideal.

In addition, it is entirely possible that the cataclysm could end with an independant Duchy of Flanders. In such a situation, there could be no possible heir when Wolfgang dies, because he has no children and his new loyalists do not count. That is, frankly, absurd.

I also disagree that barring RBGs from Dukeships is realistic. Nobility can give titles to men of lower rank as much as they want. It would be entirely realistic for the Duke of Bavaria to produce some questionably valid document that says that Friedrich Karolinger is of true noble blood and thus can inherit the title. If other Electors want to contest that (and rebel against him) that would be their right and also in-character. However, it was common practice in medieval Europe to simply produce forged documents to prove bloodlines that didn't really exist, so that political alliances could move forward. Enforcing this rule (which I still say does NOT exist in the Charter and must be actively added by a CA) will thus be going against both history and game enjoyment.