Out of character thread XVI

[Zim]

Yes, but for Jan it was an accident. For me, I wanted my avatar to have an army. That and I wanted to spark something fun and interesting for the game.

For Jan though, everything that resulted was quite a surprise. If he lived through Bern, he'd feel pretty bad about everything right now.

You certainly succeeded in that goal!

[Privateerkev]

You certainly succeeded in that goal!

Well, I was just the catalyst. OOC, I am blaming TC for everything. ;)

How dare TC tempt me with a nice shiny new army!!!



Here is a "slightly" exaggerated version of the conversation between TC and I.

TC: If you put out a call against Dassel for religious reasons, I will spawn Jan a full army but; it will destroy the game, everyone will hate you both IC and OOC, I will kill your character, and I will come over to your apartment and eat your cat.

PK: a full army? WhooHoo!!!!

[Zim]

Ooh! Ooh!, Tincow, can I get a full army, destroy the game, and have everyone hate me? Please?
I'll pass on the whole dying character thing, but you're welcome to eat the cat.

[Privateerkev]

but you're welcome to eat the cat.

Be sure to provide ketchup...

[FactionHeir]

I blame econ for telling me how Dassel could manage to escape in turn 5. If it weren't for that, I would have withdrawn south and waited for Jan.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Actually, there is some truth in it

[Privateerkev]

I blame econ for telling me how Dassel could manage to escape in turn 5. If it weren't for that, I would have withdrawn south and waited for Jan.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Actually, there is some truth in it

I'm actually quite amused that all three avatar deaths were a result of decisions each avatar made. It really does fit the fables that GH and Econ wrote at the end of the battle.

1.) Jan could have waited before hitting the square. But I assumed GH would come back into the city and I knew my army could not survive a grinding battle for the square. So I had to get there first, beat his reserve forces (which Jan did not know what they consisted of), and try to block the roads.

2.) Hans could have withdrawn south to join with Jan's cavalry which he could see way off in the southwest corner in the deployment zone. But he didn't want Dassel to escape and he wanted to make things easier for Jan's forces.

3.) Dassel could have spared Hans before surrendering. Such a move would have guaranteed his survival if captured. But he wanted some sort of victory out of this and wanted revenge on Hans for getting his old friend, Jens Hummel, killed in battle.

So, the more I think about it, the more I really like how the battle played out.

[FactionHeir]

I think Jan should have known about the forces in the square after the battle feedbacks. The map clearly showed that only Dietrich's cavalry had not been seen yet, so they had to be in the square (in addition to the side note by econ in the OOC thread).

While obviously we all are a tiny bit bitter, its interesting how each of us actively got our characters killed based on the level of feedback that we received.

[Privateerkev]

I think Jan should have known about the forces in the square after the battle feedbacks. The map clearly showed that only Dietrich's cavalry had not been seen yet, so they had to be in the square (in addition to the side note by econ in the OOC thread).

While it was simple for me to do a process of elimination based off of the army list in the Bern thread, I could not find a way to justify how Jan could know that IC. So, not wanting to meta-game, I played it as Jan not knowing it. As far as Jan knew, it could have been a single half regiment of peasants. So he rolled the dice and the rest, as they say, is history...

While obviously we all are a tiny bit bitter, its interesting how each of us actively got our characters killed based on the level of feedback that we received.

I'm not bitter at all. I went into the battle fully accepting the possibility of avatar death. You roll the dice and take your chances.

I wanted to have fun and a lot of the fun things in this game involve putting your avatar into risky situations. But to me, it was all worth it. Jan was fun to play and he went out with a bang.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I just wonder how it would have turned out if the cavalry had followed their final orders. Jan would have been countercharged and, I think, smashed. Wonder if that would have caused a rout.

[FactionHeir]

TBH, Cavalry charges in the streets tend to be very ineffective. They would however have better chances at striking at Jan's BG and isolating him from the rest of his BG there. However, charging of out the square would have made them vulnerable to routing and the infantry would have gotten to them faster.

In a way, your cavalry disobeying got Jan killed

Oh, and I always thought you wanted the cav to exit Bern and hit Hans' rear btw. That is what I would have done anyway.

[AussieGiant]

I just wonder how it would have turned out if the cavalry had followed their final orders. Jan would have been countercharged and, I think, smashed. Wonder if that would have caused a rout.

GH,

Is best not to go there. Three whole turns of inactivity from you cavalry is a game turner in any language.


You would have overwhelmed Hans and been able to more than likely hold off Jans cavalry also. I'd say you would have come out with a victory and a small but effective force at the end.

three one's, in a row on the same division...bloody hell.

I'm assuming what FH thought and you would have ordered them into the field to have them help you attack Hans.

[GeneralHankerchief]

TBH, I thought I had you with my infantry. The plan was to give Jan as much hell as possible while I finished up with you and then marched into the city to deal with his inferior army.

I saw an opportunity with Jan all alone at the gatehouse and wanted to take advantage of it.

[Privateerkev]

TBH, I thought I had you with my infantry. The plan was to give Jan as much hell as possible while I finished up with you and then marched into the city to deal with his inferior army.

I saw an opportunity with Jan all alone at the gatehouse and wanted to take advantage of it.

I had no idea at the time how close I came to Jan getting charged. I just didn't think of it. I thought my Great Cross could hold the door. I wanted the rest of the army up on the walls because I thought the big battle would be fought up there. Dassel sallying out really threw me.

This is what I loved about the battle. I had to make definite decisions with incomplete knowledge of the situation and limited communications with Jan's ally. It made things really exciting and nail-biting.

"no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy"

[TinCow]

One of the decisive actions at Bern actually occurred on the first turn of the cataclysm. If Friedrich Karolinger had kidnapped Hans' double gold Feudal Knights, they would never have reached the city. That would have significantly decreased the power of the charge into the flank of the low-level Lutheran mob on turn 4, probably preventing them from being routed off the field. They also would not have been available to help Hans kill off Hugo and carve through the Zweihanders and Forlorn Hope.

[Privateerkev]

One of the decisive actions at Bern actually occurred on the first turn of the cataclysm. If Friedrich Karolinger had kidnapped Hans' double gold Feudal Knights, they would never have reached the city. That would have significantly decreased the power of the charge into the flank of the low-level Lutheran mob on turn 4, probably preventing them from being routed off the field. They also would not have been available to help Hans kill off Hugo and carve through the Zweihanders and Forlorn Hope.

Another game altering variable was simply the turns that Jan and Hugo got on the field. If Jan was one earlier than he was, and Hugo one later than he was, it would have gone different. If Hugo was one earlier than he was, and Jan one later than he was, it would have gone different.

That part was nail biting too. I wanted in the battle so bad the anticipation was palpable. I knew OOC things were going on and had some IC hints as well. The random reserve army mechanic really tossed the whole battle into the air.

[AussieGiant]

*in a very thick japanese english accent*

Ahhh grasshoppers...so many things...so 'w'ittle time to 'w'earn.

We must sink more on this in our next'a wesson!!

Now!! Brack to wrok!!

[Northnovas]

Eisenhower Quote
Plans are nothing; planning is everything.

I see we have a debriefing go on!

"What if, how come, I thought... "

It's good to get this out to prevent post traumatic stress. We don't want to loose any good commanders.

It's interesting to see that the communications are being questioned. It always comes down to the communications and to see what other people perceived in the heat of battle. Of course no two see the same thing and to even read the same feedback and take a course of action different then the other person because of experience, their own perception and their current situation.

What is really neat is the final results and how each individual action brought a unique set of consequences to the avatars involved.

[FactionHeir]

I'm actually glad that GH did exactly what I thought he would do every single turn except the last one (I had thought he would run from the field rather than fight, although I had considered the possibility of him staying to fight as the main possibility)

As PK said, the turns when people entered the field were crucial. If PK had entered one turn earlier, I doubt any loyalists would have died in battle. If he had entered a turn later, Dassel would have escaped.

Regarding the feudal knights, I think it would have been difficult (prove me wrong) to kidnap them. Even if they had been, I think TC would have given me an extra unit pre-battle: I only received 1 DFK pre Bern because I had 19 units in my stack already.

[TinCow]

I don't remember what the odds I had drawn up were anymore, but I do remember that I was going to give Karolinger a die roll to succeed in getting them.

Also, 1 additional raw DFK is far less useful than a full double gold unit of knights charging into a flank.

[FactionHeir]

Fair enough. The main thing about the battle was that my units got +6xp but quite a few already had experience maxed, so overall, Dietrich benefitted from major stat boosts in comparison. Had I gotten a low xp unit, it wouldn't have fared much worse than a double gold: Double gold is 8 xp, normal unit would be 6xp.

Not planning to argue over who is right though as there is no issue to be arguing about :)

[Ramses II CP]

Personally I found it fascinating that both sides were so determined to force the issue as to make the siege become effectively a field battle. Given that even limited communication was possible between the city and Hugo, it appeared to me that Hans was walking the majority of his forces directly into a crushing pincer (And I gather that if the cavalry had obeyed orders things might have gone that way?). As it turned out, though, Dassel's lack of spearmen (And failed orders) was the decisive factor, even moreso than the poor quality and performance of Hugo's men. As usual in MTWII cavalry carries the day, even in a siege! I can't help imagining, however, what those swordsmen would've done to Jan's attack on the walls in the south.

...and if any of that seems like criticism, it is certainly not intended that way. I'm in no position make meaningful second guesses.

[TinCow]

NOTE: As of 1pm EST today, I have not received orders for the following people:

Elberhard (econ21) - Orders received
Tancred von Tyrolia (Dutch_guy) - Orders received
Friedrich Karolinger (Warmaster Horus)
Dieter von Kassel (Mini Econ) - Orders received

If any of the above players want to fight battles in 1332, I must receive your orders by 8pm EST tonight. I suspect that the only person this really applies to is Tancred von Tyrolia (Dutch_guy), but the others are listed just to make sure. Orders that do not involve battles can be submitted as late as this Sunday. I am aiming to start 1334 on Monday, with a slim chance of Sunday night.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Had the cavalry obeyed orders for the first time, I think Hugo's army wouldn't have been gutted during the sally and Hans's would've been mauled from both sides.

Had the cavalry obeyed orders for the second turn, then we might have had the same events as the following turn, minus Jan's cavalry charging. Depending on how much infantry I had left I would have either ordered a (successful) withdrawal or sent my men back into the city for unknown results.

For the 3rd time, well, considering where I ordered them it wouldn't have made much of an overall difference. Jan might have just died earlier and Bern wouldn't have fallen so easy, but Dietrich (and Hans) would still have died.

Ah well.

[Stuperman]

I'm still trying to figure out how han's BG took out all 4 of Hugo's cavalry untis and suffered so few causalties, overall my, er, Hugo's men didn't do especially well.

p.s. and I never got your smoke signals GH

[FactionHeir]

Actually it wasn't just my BG.

My BG, both my other cavalry, my infantry AND the archers behind your cavalry took out your cavalry, losing a DFK, my archers, half a AS and half my BG.

[Cecil XIX]

That makes more sense. After all this is Medieval II, not Rome.

*ba-doom tish*

[TinCow]

Battles Pending for 1332:

All of the following battles must be fought by the end of Sunday, November 25th. I will still accept non-battle related orders until then. However, I will not accept any changes to orders that have already been submitted that appear to me to be reactions to moves that have been made in the new save. That would be tantamount to peeking at other peoples' orders and I will not allow it.

Also, please be aware that this current save game does not represent all the orders that have been submitted. I have only made the changes necessary to allow people to fight battles against the AI. All other changes will be done after the battles are completed.

Note to all players fighting battles: If you have depleted units, feel free to merge them in any way you want, before and/or after your battle(s).

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/pbm/kotr1332-3.zip

Ehrhart Ruppel (FactionHeir):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You have traveled to Bern and taken command of the combined Loyalist and Catholic forces there. The army is pleased to have a leader once again and they eagerly await your orders. They stand ready to pacify Bern.

Note: I have already added the Small Church to the build queue, you do not need to do it. If you want to recruit any units from Bern at the end of the year with your new wealth, please let me know when you post your results.

Fritz von Kastilien (Ramses II CP):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You have defeated the Danes, retaken Stettin, and sacked the city. You can continue on and fight any of the armies around and north of Magdeburg, if you wish. There are three full stack Danish armies, 1 full stack Polish army, and 1 half stack Polish army. You may attack any of them, all of them, or none of them, depending on your wishes. You may attack them in any order you wish and at any time you wish (i.e. you can wait until after Dieter Bresch makes his attacks if you want). When you are done, you can return to Stettin. If you run out of movement points while doing this, use the following console command as often as you would like:

character_reset "Fritz von_Kastilien"

Dieter Bresch (Elite Ferret):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You have repelled the Polish assault on your citadel. It is now time to pacify the province and counterattack. There are three full stack Danish armies, 1 full stack Polish army, 1 half stack Polish army, and 1 rebel stack (representing the religious warfare). You may attack any of them, all of them, or none of them, depending on your wishes. You may attack them in any order you wish and at any time you wish. When you are done, you can return to Magdeburg. It would probably be best if you attacked the rebel army first. It must be destroyed this turn to prevent more damage to the citadel next year. Tancred von Tyrolia has offered to aid you in your attacks. You may use any of the units in his stack EXCEPT Tancred's bodyguards. You can pick them up immediately, or at any point during your fighting. For example, they may be good replacements for men lost in your first battle. If you run out of movement points while doing this, use the following console command as often as you would like:

character_reset "Dieter Bresch"

Karl Zirn (Northnovas):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Your army stands ready to attack the Hungarian army that is pressing on Zagreb. Defeat them and protect your County.

Lorenz Zirn (Roadkill - BATTLE TO BE FOUGHT BY NORTHNOVAS):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

You sent a great deal of money to Ragusa and Arnold has recruited a powerful force for you. It consists of three regiments of DFKs, three regiments of Armoured Sergeants, and a regiment of Pavise Crossbowmen. All are outfitted with the best weapons and armor that the smiths of Ragusa can manufacture. Combined with the garrison of Vienna, you now control a strong host. However, this has taken a great deal of time and it is very late in the year. The only action you can take this year is to pacify the province. Do so immediately to prevent any further damage to Vienna.

Matthias Steffen (OverKnight):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Crusaders who have refused to leave Outremer have been brought to join your army at the Iron Bridge. Your force is once again a power to be reckoned with. There is a band of rebels just north of the bridge. They are not blocking any trade that is important to you, but you may eliminate them if you wish. You may also strike at any Byzantine army that is within range, if you so desire.

[RoadKill]

I have a question. Did Jan die?

[Zim]

I have a question. Did Jan die?

Yep, along with Hans and Dietrich.

[FactionHeir]

Taking the save