Out of character thread XVII

[FactionHeir]

For provinces already incorporated they automatically return to the house when captured by any HRE unit.

[AussieGiant]

For provinces already incorporated they automatically return to the house when captured by any HRE unit.

Christ....I need a permanent lawyer in this game

[econ21]

For provinces already incorporated they automatically return to the house when captured by any HRE unit.

Well, that's more a pre-cataclysm convention than a rule. And it makes sense in a non-cataclysm context when only a settlement might be lost only very rarely.

In the context of the cataclysm, I had hoped to make recaptured settlements up for grabs, to make things more interesting politically post-cataclysm.

The Charter itself is rather ambiguous on the subject, as losing a settlement was frankly not something I had considered at the start of the PBM!

I suppose by the rules, the interpretation could be decided by the Council (the four Dukes) that is called when rules disputes directly concern the Kaiser's power. However, I rather suspect they would all prefer the conservative interpretation that they can keep what was once theirs. I guess we will play it that way unless I hear from two of them that they want the Kaiser to allocate recaptured settlements. (One can live in hope ... )

[FactionHeir]

Third, Emperors allocate newly captured provinces to the Ducal Houses. When a province is captured, it comes under the direct control of the Emperor, who can control them in the same manner that the Dukes and the Counts can control their own lands. The Emperor may allocate any of his lands to any of the Ducal Houses. Once allocated, they cannot ever be returned to the Emperor. House provinces where are re-taken after being occupied by an enemy do not count as being “captured.”

Charter Amendment 10.2:
(a) No settlement will be captured without an Edict authorising its acquisition in advance.
(b) Captured settlements will be abandoned or given away unless, at the next Diet session, a Charter Amendment incorporates them formally as part of the Reich.
(c) The 33 existing provinces of the Reich are exempt from (a) and (b).
(d) This amendment overrides the constitutional right of Household Armies to conquer one neighbouring province.

I think the Charter is actually quite clear on this. It would also mean that Nuremburg cannot be Imperial.

[TinCow]

The first thing you quoted is the FAQ I wrote, not the Charter. It is for guidance only and is not legally binding. It specifically states that in italics at the top.

[FactionHeir]

Ugh, I'm going to get killed by arguing with a lawyer, but here goes:

If anything in these paragraphs conflicts with one of the Game Rules, the Rule takes precedent.

Since there is nothing in the rules conflicting this information, the FAQ content in this particular case would be in effect and binding until the rules (i.e. charter) are amended.

[TinCow]

Since there is nothing in the rules conflicting this information, the FAQ content in this particular case would be in effect and binding until the rules (i.e. charter) are amended.

Possibly, but it's a pointless argument under the circumstances. Lothar wants to give Nuremburg to Elberhard until Rome is recaptured. If he needs to, he will point to the following rule language and say that this authorizes it:

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy.

If you argue against that, he will say that the rules are unclear and ask for the Kaiser to mediate. Since the situation directly involves the Kaiser, it will then turn to the four Dukes to decide. Lothar knows that Arnold will support his decision, thus meaning that at worst it is an even split. In the event of a tie, the Kaiser's vote is the deciding factor. Thus, there is no point in arguing that Lothar can't give away Nuremburg, because even if you are right he will do it anyway.

[econ21]

Since there is nothing in the rules conflicting this information, the FAQ content in this particular case would be in effect and binding until the rules (i.e. charter) are amended.

I don't think TC intended to "legislate" with the FAQ. If he thought he was creating new rules, I suspect he would have proposed a CA. (He has proposed "tidying up" CAs before for more minor things.)

[FactionHeir]

Alright, I'm going to argue this for the point of arguing

Possibly, but it's a pointless argument under the circumstances. Lothar wants to give Nuremburg to Elberhard until Rome is recaptured. If he needs to, he will point to the following rule language and say that this authorizes it:

4.4 Dukes can then grant a settlement to a player, making him Count of that settlement. The settlements remain nominally within the relevant Duchy.

Except that Emperors cannot be made counts, so this wouldn't be possible.

Anyway, need to be off to a charity event now.

[Stuperman]

Well, part of me is glad that all previous settlements are returned to thier respective houses, but there could be some really interesting politics assosiated with re-distrobuting them. (imaginary: "Loyal Franconians I do bestow on you Naples, good luck defending it!)

[econ21]

I think the Charter is actually quite clear on this. It would also mean that Nuremburg cannot be Imperial.

Your first quote is not from the Charter - it is from TinCow's preamble that is to provide a "simple understanding" of the rules. In this particular case, I think the preamble goes quite a bit further than what I can find in the rules proper.

Your second quote does not seem to bear on the issue.

As I said, I am not going to push this unless two Dukes back me up. Returning everything to it's House makes my role IC much easier. The only province Elberhard would really blanche at returning to its owner is poor Stettin.



On another subject, a battle report for Palermo is up. I can start to see Zim's point about the timer when it comes to siege assaults. Mini-Econ was really fighting against the clock - if you look at the last screenshot, there is no shaded area on the hourglass at all. However, we struggled to find an in-character rationalisation of why there was a need to hurry. (The best we could come up with was possible outside reinforcements and unrest within the city).

I still think we should keep the timer, but agree it can seem gamey in some situations.

BTW: the battle reports thread is getting rather full of screenshots, so takes a while to load. Please split your reports up into multiple posts if you are going to post a lot of screenshots. That way we will fill up the 30 posts/page quota without readers having to load over a hundred images. The WotS battle reports thread became unreadable to people with slow connections because of this problem.