Imperial Diet VII

[FactionHeir]

If you wish to include them, please propose it in your own edict, Luther.

Both of the men you name did not start a rebellion and both wished to stop the war via diplomacy. However, as neither of the rebels were willing to cease their rebellion and fight the French instead with almost no repercussions from the late Duke Hans, it was necessary to use force after the rebels had murdered fellow Germans first to prevent further escalation. King Jan, god rest his soul, returned from Outremer with the stated goal of preventing Swabia from falling to the rebels and to counteract the influence of your fanatics at Bern. Afterall, there was not only the Christian army, but the Lutheran army as well.

Luther, the war may the over, but should we honest Germans really wish to dishonor and desecrate our forefathers by laying to rest two traitors of the empire next to them and worship them in the same breath? I think not.

[AussieGiant]

Shaking his head in astonishment at his life long friend, Arnold can only look on as the fury and venom spews forth from Lothar's mouth.


£$% me, I'm glad I didn't make that list!!

Christ on the Cross, we are a bunch of heathen scum when it's all said and done.

[TinCow]

Truer words were never spoken, Arnold. I propose that every Elector that has ever lived be cast into the pillory. Surely we have all sinned in some way or another. We cannot pollute the pure resting grounds of the Imperial Mausoleum with villains like Maximillian Mandorf, who is rumored to have raped a priest, even if he has been declared a Saint since then. Let us clear all the filth out and leave the Mausoleum clean and barren, the way Eden was after those abominations, Adam and Eve, were tossed out on their arses.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alexander Luther:

My fanatics?

What madness is this?

I called for the formation of a second Lutheran army specifically after Jan von Hamburg arrived and created a rabble of his own! Get your facts straight.

[FactionHeir]

Hans was the first Elector in history to take up arms against a fellow German when he marched against Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia. He was also personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of Germans at Metz and Bern.

And yet he did not kill a single German man in the process of pursuing Prince Peter, but aided his capture peacefully. He has also only raised his sword against the rebels at Bern after Dassel had attacked its loyal German garrison with cannons and arms that you supplied him with.
At Metz, he fought rebels that were more French than German. The kind of unorganized rabble that every elector has faced during the period of the cataclysm.

Jan von Hamburg, in turn, abandoned his appointed position as King of Outremer without even so much as consulting with his fellow Crusaders before leaving, thus causing a crisis of military leadership which jeapordized the entire defense of Outremer. He struck a deal with a Pope who was an enemy of the Reich, a Pope who was later removed from power through the wise actions of Kaiser Elberhard and Dieter von Kassel. He sold an ancient and valued relic of Christendom to further his own means of transportation. Then, when he arrived back in the Reich, he also took up arms against fellow Germans, slaying them happily in cold blood. As if that were not enough, he was responsible for sparking the War of Reformation, which cost well over 100,000 civilian lives and untold amounts of economic damange.

From what I know, he left his position secretly as not to alert those who supported the unlawful rebellion in Swabia. The pope may have been an enemy, but he became one only through the actions of Dietrich von Dassel who killed the pope and exterminated the papal city of Durazzo. If it were not for Dassel, King Jan would have returned via vessels provided by a friendly pope. The war of reformation, as we all know was started through the violent offspring of Lutheran teachings in several small hamlets across the empire already. It was only tipped off when both Dassel, Luther, and Jan called for men of faith to gather at Bern. Again, if Dassel had not rebelled or joined forces with the rightful Duke at that time as he was offered, this would not have occured.

[TinCow]

Ah, you are entirely correct, Elector Ruppel. Your wisdom once again prevails. We must ensure that those who were the ultimate cause of all this suffering be sent to the Pillory. We must, of course, ensure that Kaiser Siegfried is placed there as well. Surely no one is bold enough to state that this entire conflict was not caused by his unilateral and vastly unpopular decision to unite the Reich with the Byzantine Empire. There is our ultimate culprit, and a man who must also join the rest of the list in mortuary purgatory.

[FactionHeir]

Duke Lothar, the point behind my proposed edict is not to banish anyone who has sinned in their life to the pillory, but rather those who openly rebelled against Imperial authority thus commiting high treason, were the first to spill German blood, and did not stop when asked to do so by lawful authority.

As we all well know, good men such as Prince Peter, Edmund Becker and Ludwig von Böhmen saw reason and rejoined the empire without spilling German blood. Contrast this to Dassel and Hümmel. As you suggested in your letter you wrote and presented, you did have second thoughts about supporting such rebellions and that it may not have been the best thing to do.

[TinCow]

Well, then the first German blood that was spilt on the battlefield was between Wolfgang Hummel and Athalwolf von Salza. Indeed, I believe it was Athalwolf's crossbowmen who notched up the first few fatalities. Thank you for reminding me that your own Duke must then be added to the list.

[FactionHeir]

If I remember correctly, the battle of Normandy ensued when Hümmel moved to attack Duke von Salza and Rheims. Defending your own lands against rebels certainly is legal I would presume?

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alexander Luther:

The root cause of the Swabian Civil War occured early on during Kaiser Siegfried's reign when Wolfgang Hummel was directly ordered to assault and occupy the city of Bruges.

The city, at the time, was suffering from an unholy Plague, where around 50% of its inhabitants were either already sick or dead. Now, this was common knowledge at the time. And yet Hans still ordered Hummel in. Wolfgang Hummel, a loyal vassal of Swabia at the time, was specifically ordered by his Duke to, pretty much, get the plague and die.

But, since Hans was already Duke at the time, he is a hero.

[TinCow]

Legal? Is that how we are defining this, then? All men who have broken laws are to be sent to the Pillory? Well now, that is certainly a bold statement, but I agree to it. We must, therefore, obviously include the late Ulrich Hummel for his violations of the law during his Chancellorship. It also brings us back around the Peter von Kastilien and Tancred von Tyrolia, who declared war on an ally of the Reich without the approval of the Diet. Thank you for continuing to improve our list of those unworthy of spending eternity in anything approaching quiet dignity.

[FactionHeir]

From what I gather in the archives, it was not known to Swabia nor the empire that Bruges was plague infested. Indeed, Hümmel himself in a letter to the late Duke Hans expressed the wish to be able to take command of the Swabian Household Army and be allowed to take Bruges.

[Warluster]

Duke von Salza hears of the accusations against him

Yes, I may have spilled German blood, but it was worthless, rebel blood! I was defending our homeland!? If I wanted to not kill fellow Germans, can you think of what would've happened if I let Hummel past?

I would like to second Erhart Ruppel's edict.

I would like to point out, there are other ways of refusing to do something then rebelling and killing fellow Germans. He could've directly appealed to the Kaiser?

DUke von Salza sits down

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alexander Luther:

You are examining the wrong maps, Ruppel. It was common knowledge in that time period. Indeed, all the up-to-date maps of that era (OOC: savegames) had that Bruges was beplagued already marked on there!

[FactionHeir]

My apologis Duke Lothar, but I believe you are taking my words out of context.
I clearly stated that it would be legal to defend yourself and your lands if you are attacked.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alexander Luther:

I see. And you are now apparantely the sole determiner of what is and is not legal.

My apologies Ruppel, let me now swear fealty to you.

[FactionHeir]

The archives state that it was only known that Bruges was infested with the plague after it was taken or during the battle. (OOC: We did not have a spy there and the turn Hümmel moved into Bruges, it was not possible to see whether it was infested, only when he actually started laying siege to it)
Yet he decided to press the battle rather than retreat.

[TinCow]

Then surely Duke Hans must again be subject to the Pillory. He attacked the good people of Metz, who were only defending themselves against an outside aggressor. Surely the citizens of the city themselves are capable of defending their own lands? If they take up arms against an outsider, then the outsider must, by nature, be the attacker and not the defender of their homes. This will again force us to include Lorenz Zirn and Fritz von Kastilien into the list. Also, it casts doubt on Wolfgang Hummel himself, for he was beloved by the people of Bruges, likely more so than any Lord has been loved by a people. Surely his efforts in defending the people of Bruges against Hans and Athalwolf's attempt to reconquer them is legal by your standards. After all, Bruges was clearly his land not only by right of conquest, but also by the desire of the people themselves.

[AussieGiant]

Obviously amused by the thrust and counter thrust Arnold can be seen writing down ever name mentioned by any of the combatants. To no one in particular the Duke looks over his shoulder to his fellow Austrian nobles and his retinue.

I'm still highly impressed that I haven't made it onto anyone's list, although I'm sure my father would be unhappy considering the legacy he gave me and how much time I've invested in maintaining and expanding upon it.

I'm rather shocked actually.

Now looking entirely glum at not being mentioned Arnold resumes his note taking

[Ferret]

Come now, we cannot be endorsing traitors can we? I pledge my support to this Edict.

Dieter turns to Luther but does not talk directly to him.

And what of this heretic? Was it the Kaiser's decision to let the man who caused such loss of life in our sacred Empire into these most important of halls?

[FactionHeir]

I shall ask you to consult your geographer on this matter. Caen, Bruges, and Metz are all part of the Duchy of Swabia and thus subject to the Duke of Swabia or the Count assigned to rule the lands.

As Metz rebelled against the Duke and indeed against the empire by throwing out its garrison and destroying Imperial property, while being ruled by a local mob, it was clearly a valid target for the Duke to restore his authority at.

Hümmel on the other hand unlawfully occupied Caen and Bruges, preventing their funds and arms to reach the lawful Duke and consequently Imperial men at arms that needed equipment to defend their homes against rebellion and the French. If you contrast this with Edmund Becker, Hümmel used those forces to attack fellow Germans and refused to reconcile on favorable terms while Edmund Becker used his troops to defend against foreigners only and eventually rejoined his Duchy.

[TinCow]

True, true, rebels must certainly lose any rights to their lands, be they peasant hovels or entire Duchies. The Pillory must be limited to those who attack lands that are rightfully and legally held by others. This is excellent, as it vastly increases our list. For, with the exception of the newer arrivals into the Diet, nearly every Elector in the Reich, living and dead, has been responsible for attacking foreign lands that they did not have any legal right to. I will not bother to list all of the names of the nobles who have conquered a foreign city, but I hope Arnold will be pleased to note that he can finally be included on these grounds.

*Lothar nods his head respectfully to the Duke of Austria.*

Welcome to Purgatory, my friend! It seems to be a popular place these days.

[AussieGiant]

Standing abruptly and raising his fist in triumph, Arnold lets out a cry of success

Yyyyesssss!!!!!

Now we're talkin' Lothar!!!

[GeneralHankerchief]

Alexander Luther:

As a matter of fact, Bresch, it was. And I immensely regret falling for his deception, for I was lured here on the basis that we were able to be reconciled and beyond these petty disputes! These people are dead and have lost in their causes. Should the Lord see fit, their ultimate judgement will be decided elsewhere.

For now, we should focus on issues for the living. Living! Why must we debate on what section of some Mausoleum two Electors fall in when there are Byzantine territories that need to be reconquered??!

Finally, I once again request that I be granted a vote in this Diet. With people like Bresch improperly slandering my name after I have repeatedly apologized, I must be allowed to defend my honor.

[Ramses II CP]

History is written by the victors, eh Ruppel? Consider this, Peter will be Kaiser in due time and who will be the victors then?

I will be blunt, it matters not one whit what you do with my remains once I'm dead. I've seen enough meat chopped, chewed, and in every other guise mistreated to know it's real worth. Those men are dead. They can't help us defend the walls. Do with them as you will for all of me, but realize this; in your own time you too will be castigated and humiliated by those who come after. This is the fate of all prominent men. Think on it well before you attack those who have gone before you.

Now, where will the Not-Imperial-but-ever-so-much-better Mausoleum for Heroes of the Resistance againt ****fool Unification be placed? I'd volunteer Hamburg, but I fear if my young friend the Count of Hamburg ever makes it out of Palermo to see it he may not be too pleased.

With a contemptuous shrug Fritz returns to his seat.

[FactionHeir]

I have argued my point, and it is not about rewriting large volumes of history, but simply to pay our respects to our ancestors who have fallen in defence of a unified empire and who have helped forge our empire rather than wantonly destroy it for their own petty squabbles and refusing to come to the aid of their fellow electors.

Now, since you are so clever Duke Lothar, you certainly wish to tell me why Jens von Kassel is confined to the Pillory when men such as Hümmel and Dassel are not? Has he committed any greater atrocities than those men have?

And Luther, of course we wish to reclaim our lands, but as the diet does not close for another day and there was little talk about anything still ongoing, I felt that this would be a good time to present this edict. Whether or not we debate and vote on it or not, the diet will not be cut short either way and we might as well use this time. If you do not wish for debate, you may find the tavern next door.

[gibsonsg91921]

Perhaps everyone, not just electors, whoever fought a battle against German rebels since the beginning of time should be confined to the Pillory. Hamburg was a rebel German city long ago. Now it may be considered one of the greatest cities of the Reich, but Dietrich von Saxony and his army of swine surely attacked it and killed Germans.

[Privateerkev]

Alexander Luther:Finally, I once again request that I be granted a vote in this Diet. With people like Bresch improperly slandering my name after I have repeatedly apologized, I must be allowed to defend my honor.

Yes, Father Luther should either be given the right to vote or he should lose the ability to propose a CA/edict.

If your an elector, you gain both abilities. If your not, you have neither abilities and are only a spectator.

Since CA 14.4 already is co-proposed by Kaiser Elberhard, taking Father Luther's name off of the legislation will not effect whether the legislation makes it on the ballot.

The Charter is quite clear on Elector rights. If Father Luther is not an elector, then he simply does not have elector rights. If he is an elector, then he can vote.

[deguerra]

Ludwig rises, concern on his face

I have said many times before, that I am not one worthy to speak of loyalty. I put loyalty to my employer before that of the Reich and my Kaiser, and I can never repay that price.

Perhaps, then, to save my own immortal soul, but also because I am a religious man and believe that after death, only the Lord shall have the right to judge us, I cannot support this edict.

I am sorry, Duke von Salza, if you preceive this as yet more disloyalty on my behalf. It is not meant as such, or disloyalty to our most noble house, or as disrespect to you or Herr Ruppel in any way. I understand your reasons for this edict. I just hope you can understand mine.

Ludwig bows slightly to the room at large, and then more profusely to his Duke and sits

[TinCow]

Elector Ruppel, the reason Jens von Kassel is confined to the Pillory is simple: no man thought enough of him to defend his worth in the Diet. He had no friends or admirers and all unanimously considered him a traitor and worthy of disgrace. Clearly that is not the case with either Dietrich von Dassel or Wolfgang Hummel. You may view those men as vile traitors, but I, for one, believe that they were noble and honorable men who were fighting to make the Reich a better place. Whatever sins they may have committed and whatever laws they may have broken, I do not believe that their errors are sufficient to condemn them to permanent disgrace in death. They have paid for their mistakes with their lives, surely that is enough.

I would also like to ask a serious question, discarding all sarcasm. Why have you not included Jan von der Pfalz in your edict? He was a rebel just as much as Wolfgang and Dietrich. He knew exactly which side he was joining when he pledged loyalty to Wolfgang. Furthermore, unlike Ludwig von Bohmen, Jan von der Pfalz never reconciled with Duke Athalwolf. He died an unrepentant rebel, yet you have chosen to ignore his 'crimes' though they are identical to the other two men you name. If you truly believe that all true rebels should receive the Pillory, then Jan must be included with your legislation. If you do not include him, we can only conclude that you have proposed this legislation out of a personal vendetta against men who have already paid the highest price for their actions.

Let the dead rest in peace, Ehrhart, they can do you no more harm.