Unlimited Golden Horde

[Cmdrnarrain]

Does anybody know if there is a mod which allows the Golden Horde to appear every year for say 10 to 20 years.

The reason why I'm asking is because the Golden Horde does usually do much in most games I play and I would really love it if they showed up with enough strength over several years to really cause me to be worried.

[r johnson]

I gotta say the Horde atm doesn't worry you?

[Heidrek]

What difficulty level are you playing on? The Horde is normally a major factor in my games if I'm playing a faction that starts anywhere near their appearance. Unless contained immediately they can cause massive damage to an expanding empire in my experience.

How many troops does the Horde start with? 10,000? More?

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Cmdrnarrain! Glad to see you here.

Unfortunately, I'm not aware of a mod in which the GH appear beyond 1231. To be perfectly honest, I'm not even certain it would even be possible to to mod that. I'm no modder, however, so I may very well be wrong in thinking that.

How many troops does the Horde start with? 10,000? More?

It varies. The size of the Mongols' initial army depends on two main factors:

1.) Which version of the game you're playing: In the original MTW, the Horde appearance tended to be rather...underwhelming, as it would usually show up with less than 5000 men. If you're playing MTW with the VI expansion installed, however (or MTW Eras/Gold Edition), the Mongols appear with a significantly larger army -- somewhere between 15,000 to 40,000 troops. Obviously, that's still a pretty wide range, which indirectly leads to the second (and even more important) factor....

2.) The size of the defending garrisons in "Horde provinces": The more troops one has stationed in a province in which the Mongols can appear, then the larger the Horde's army will be. Thus, if a faction has 500 men stationed in Khazar, they're more likely to see a relatively smaller Mongol force -- say, a "mere" 16,000 men. If a faction has a huge army of 6,000 troops, however, then the Khan's army is going to be correspondingly huge -- well over 30,000 for sure. (I personally have fought Mongol invasions consisting of 32,000 men, and I know of players who say they've fought as many as 38,000.)

The difficulty level you choose may very well also have an effect on the size of the Golden Horde -- I honestly can't recall now whether it does or not -- but either way, the single biggest determinant is still how big the garrison is that's defending a "Horde province".

[Jxrc]

The size of the defending garrisons in "Horde provinces"[/B]: The more troops one has stationed in a province in which the Mongols can appear, then the larger the Horde's army will be. Thus, if a faction has 500 men stationed in Khazar, they're more likely to see a relatively smaller Mongol force -- say, a "mere" 16,000 men. If a faction has a huge army of 6,000 troops, however, then the Khan's army is going to be correspondingly huge -- well over 30,000 for sure. (I personally have fought Mongol invasions consisting of 32,000 men, and I know of players who say they've fought as many as 38,000.)

Are you sure about that ? Seems to me that the size of the Horde depends on the size of the army of the faction with the most troops. Few times Khazar was guarded by two units of Byz peasants and slav warriors and the GH was still huge. IF I am correct that could be an explanation for the fact that the GH is always much smaller if you play in High rather than Early.

[Agent Miles]

It may be both factors. I did a test once where I reloaded and put more troops in Khazar and more GH troops did show up there. So that much is true. I probably had the largest standing army too, so I got over 20k Ghers.

[Cmdrnarrain]

I'm playing XL with the Eras expansion. I really do not remember a time when I have not crushed the horde with a relatively small army of 1,500 men (mostly bows and spears) on the defensive as there is little point in attacking the horde unless you like chasing horse archers around the map.

I was hoping there was a mod which represented the horde arriving in waves. That way they actually have a chance of taking the world instead of being bogged down before Hungry. I think the horde appearing in waves would be really scary especially if you play the Turks or Cumens.

[drone]

My understanding is that they tend to run out of money after a while, that's why they bog down. Maybe mod down their unit cost and upkeep figures, to keep them viable. Not a modder myself, but that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

Does anyone know the building requisites for Golden Horde units? Maybe lower them as well.

[caravel]

I believe their recruitment requirements are quite low, but reducing the support costs would be the thing to do if you want a juggernaut horde.

As to making them appear in waves, that can't be done. The emerging factions such as the Burgundians, Swiss and GH cannot be modded to appear at different dates. Nor can you mod it so that extra troops arrive every few years (as in the MI campaign for STW). Unfortunately this is all hardcoded.

Apart from support costs you can also improve the Horde by modding out the infantry element, namely the Golden Horde Warriors. Masses of these appearing in battle is not very realistic as historically the Mongols wouldn't have fought like this and they are very easy for the player to simply run down. Another fix is to improve the standards of some of the starting mongol generals and khans, as they are quite weak, this should pretty much do the trick. If you wanted to go further you could tinker with the MHC/MHA's stats but this needs to be done with caution to avoid overpowering them.

[drone]

I believe their recruitment requirements are quite low, but reducing the support costs would be the thing to do if you want a juggernaut horde.

Upkeep costs are pretty low already, if I'm not mistaken. The Frog's unit guide has 22 for GH Warriors, 50 for Heavy Cav, and 30 for Horse Archers. The recruitment costs are pretty high though (300, 525, 575, respectively), I wonder if they are unable to train new units after a while due to these costs. Or building requirements limit them when they sack provinces, but I don't have a clue about what they are.

I assume it's also possible to mod the Horde's starting treasury. Maybe give them a few million for grins (or use the -ian/.deadringer. combo).

[Ironsword]

Well, you're all too brutal players for me.

I started as the Turkish the other day in high. I took one meagre province from some rebels, repelled an Italian and a HRE crusade, then got absolutely spanked by the GH.

Is it just me or do they almost never break in combat? I think they're powerful enough if you're starting out in that corner.

[caravel]

Upkeep costs are pretty low already, if I'm not mistaken. The Frog's unit guide has 22 for GH Warriors, 50 for Heavy Cav, and 30 for Horse Archers. The recruitment costs are pretty high though (300, 525, 575, respectively), I wonder if they are unable to train new units after a while due to these costs. Or building requirements limit them when they sack provinces, but I don't have a clue about what they are.

I assume it's also possible to mod the Horde's starting treasury. Maybe give them a few million for grins (or use the -ian/.deadringer. combo).

Indeed though the recruitment cost is a one off payment whereas support costs are per annum.

If you were to reduce the recruitment costs the Horde would quickly spam a few thousand more troops then founder when trying to pay all of the support. It's better to reduce their support costs even more than they are in vanilla as this will help to stop them going into the red (they raze everything anyway, aren't exactly the greatest traders and so don't derive much income from the land or sea) and historically the Horde would have been hardened warriors that would have mainly supported themselves through pillaging. The way to do this IMHO is to work on the support costs. It is these that paralyze the Horde right from the start.

I've never tried modding their starting treasury, that would also be very worthwhile if it works for emerging factions.

Well, you're all too brutal players for me.

I started as the Turkish the other day in high. I took one meagre province from some rebels, repelled an Italian and a HRE crusade, then got absolutely spanked by the GH.

Is it just me or do they almost never break in combat? I think they're powerful enough if you're starting out in that corner.

Quite a difficult campaign. You have to take Georgia early on and fortify it as best as you can with alot of Saracen infantry, Ghazis, Futuwwa and Armenian Heavy cavalry. Janissaries would be great but you'll probably struggle to tech up to them in only 26 years. Then fight the hill defenses to keep the Horde out of there. This is pretty much one battle after another so be prepared for some epic four or five hour defensive engagements.

Also if you're unlucky enough to have the Horde pop up in Armenia then you must at least do very well in the first battle if you want to hold on to your heartlands. Fail to win and be prepared to go under siege in some of your neighbouring provinces. Georgia must hold to prevent the Horde in Armenia from being relieved by those in Khazar.

[Cmdrnarrain]

I tried something different by building a fortress in Khazam and garrisoned it with an 8 Star Hvy Cumen Calvary General and 3 baskhots (spearmen/javlinmen) for about 220 men. I also put defensive armies of about 1,500 troops (mostly archers and baskhots) in the three provinces surrounding it.

About 16,000 Mongels showed up, 13,000 assaulted the fortress and 3,000 attacked the Volga. The 3,000 were repulsed for about 150 Cumens for 2,000 Mongels. The 13,000 attacked the fortress and left about 8,000 dead around the walls before time ran out. (hint: the AI does not sweep the whole ring so if you hide 1 fella in the back it will keep all of the towers firing in each ring).

The next turn 6,000 neutral mongels (the khan, his brothers and little dog all died in the previous battles) gave the fortress another try and almost succeeded in taking it, but again ran out of time again with 5,800 dead. I was down to about 80 men but all 4 units were still around.

The final turn I sweep the 200 dregs back into the hinterlands.

Normally, I just defend Georgia to protect the Crusade provinces for about the same results but as the Cumens they showed up on my backdoor. I just don't think the Mongels are tough enough to be a real threat.

Maybe random turn and location entry would help too instead of just larger numbers. Hehe, 18,000 Mongels showing up in Scotland around 1100 would cause me to fill my draws.

[Innocentius]

It's always fun to mess with the Mongol invasion. A good one is cheating and teching up Khazar to a master armourer and the highest level of Pagan Shrine as the Cumans, pumping Khazar full with spearmen and slav warriors and thereafter retreating to Levidia and Crimea (reachable only across a river). This way, I've triggered an invasion of some 15,000 - 20,000+ Mongols with gold armour and +4 morale... in High. Ah, the amuses of cheating.

[drone]

Another thought popped into my head on Horde size. As Martok mentioned:

2.) The size of the defending garrisons in "Horde provinces": The more troops one has stationed in a province in which the Mongols can appear, then the larger the Horde's army will be. Thus, if a faction has 500 men stationed in Khazar, they're more likely to see a relatively smaller Mongol force -- say, a "mere" 16,000 men. If a faction has a huge army of 6,000 troops, however, then the Khan's army is going to be correspondingly huge -- well over 30,000 for sure. (I personally have fought Mongol invasions consisting of 32,000 men, and I know of players who say they've fought as many as 38,000.)

So the more troops you have in the province, the more Horde. I wonder how this calculation is done. Is it based on point values of the defenders, or just number of troops? If it's based on point values, then I would assume that lowering the Horde recruitment costs would bring more Horde units to the invasion.

Also, is it possible to mod the Horde's "king and heirs" statistics, to make them more difficult to kill off. Once they go rebel, I would assume they would get saddled with the rebel faction's debt and pretty much stall out.

[nara shikamaru]

Ah the GH such fond memories. I've dealt with them as the Almo's, Eggy's, Russian's, French, and the Volga Bulgars, I think that's all of them. And I have to say, it was not fun. I remember on some of the aforementioned campaigns having only the governor left in Khazar, no more than 100 men, and getting about 13-18k of GH forces. Others I had prepared, maybe 7-10k of my own in Khazar, and only 6K of GH. Now I thought there were more else where. Nope only in Khazar. So from my experience it seems random the amount of men they get.

Also to note, the Volga Bulgarian campaign was the most recent one I did where I had to deal with the horde, and I must say, it was very fun. I didn't hold Khazar at the time, but did have to deal with a GH attack pretty much every turn for well over a decade. Usually out numbered about 1.5-2 of them to 1 of me, and still won about 90% of the battles. What I especially loved about that campaign was the GH Khan Ogadai III, I think, getting squished by a rock, from his own catapult, wish I took a pic of that.

So from what I learned, the amount of troops the GH get seems randomized, as I've seen vast 20+K forces, to only about 6K. And that the number of troops where they land, isn't always directly affected by how much is in the province to begin with, but what do I know.

Now if you excuse me, I hear my Berber camels calling for me to kill more infidels.

[Heidrek]

The Horde are difficult to fight due to their excellent mobility. All those arrows are such a massive irritation. I think the best tactic I found was fighting them on the steppes. A couple of units of Pavise Arbalesters with armour upgrades in loose formation at the tree line with a bunch of halbs and heavy infantry in the trees behind then and a couple of cavalry units hidden off to the side.

In my current High age XL campaign, the Golden Horde are the pre eminent power other than myself. they've just broken the stalemate by attacking one of my provinces and it's time to face off against them. This is going to get very nasty very soon.

Scots V Golden Horde. I'll keep you advised of the outcome. So far I've scapled the Castile-Leonese and humbled the French, so it's time for the two big boys to fight it out.

[ArtistofWarfare]

The Horde are difficult to fight due to their excellent mobility. All those arrows are such a massive irritation. I think the best tactic I found was fighting them on the steppes. A couple of units of Pavise Arbalesters with armour upgrades in loose formation at the tree line with a bunch of halbs and heavy infantry in the trees behind then and a couple of cavalry units hidden off to the side.

In my current High age XL campaign, the Golden Horde are the pre eminent power other than myself. they've just broken the stalemate by attacking one of my provinces and it's time to face off against them. This is going to get very nasty very soon.

Scots V Golden Horde. I'll keep you advised of the outcome. So far I've scapled the Castile-Leonese and humbled the French, so it's time for the two big boys to fight it out.

Scots V GH ...

What an interesting matchup

Good Luck

[Heidrek]

Turned out to be a non event. I nalied them in a couple of defensive battles, while the Crusaders ripped into them from the souther provinces. The Horde toppled like a house of cards, sparking rebellions and reemergences aplenty. About 3 nations have reemerged from the Ashes of the GH's former empire. I've claimed all of Scandanavia (having nailed the re emerged Swedes) and Pomerania, while the Crusader states have more or less gutted the steppes.

It's looking like it's me vs the Crusader states now. I've got Switzerland mass producing Swiss Halbadeirs seeing as I can't build any normally, but I'm approaching the point where SAP's will be available.

I'm thinking I won't be able to compete with their cavalry ata ll, so it's Spears and Welsh longbows all the way for me, backed with some light cav, Swiss Halb's and Gallowglasses.

[seireikhaan]

If you get enough Swiss Pikes or Swiss Armoured Pikes, the need to compete with cavalry suddenly becomes much less important. Even the best of the best cav that the crusaders have will be torn apart by SAP's as long as you don't utilize them like a total maniac.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Turned out to be a non event. I nalied them in a couple of defensive battles, while the Crusaders ripped into them from the souther provinces. The Horde toppled like a house of cards, sparking rebellions and reemergences aplenty. About 3 nations have reemerged from the Ashes of the GH's former empire. I've claimed all of Scandanavia (having nailed the re emerged Swedes) and Pomerania, while the Crusader states have more or less gutted the steppes.

It's looking like it's me vs the Crusader states now. I've got Switzerland mass producing Swiss Halbadeirs seeing as I can't build any normally, but I'm approaching the point where SAP's will be available.

I'm thinking I won't be able to compete with their cavalry ata ll, so it's Spears and Welsh longbows all the way for me, backed with some light cav, Swiss Halb's and Gallowglasses.

Well, you know what Sun Tzu (Wu, to be entirely accurate ) said about lengthy campaigns: No force has ever benefited from one.

So even though it wasn't a "long" war, it was a war and you won it quickly and decisively. Congrats.

As for dealing with a large fellow Catholic enemy: I like your approach. Long ago I learned the value of pushing your strengths as opposed to balancing your weaknesses.

If you can't out cavalry them, don't. Recruit to just render their cavalry ineffective once the battle begins (or as least effective as possible).

If possible, fight this defensively and wage a war of attrition. Put the burden of attack/conquer on them and build every province so that it's just a killing zone for them as soon as they lay siege.

[Heidrek]

My standard approach has been to create a large standard army with a balance of troops, but overall better suited to defense rather than attack (plenty of Artillery, Ranged troops, solid infantry and spears, with some cavalry support). Build up the border provinces with good defensive armies and generals if possible, then drop my main army into the target province. Chances are I'll well and truely outgun the defenders and they'll either retreat or to stronghold or abandon the province.

I then either Siege them out or wait for the enemy to counterattack in force to relieve the siege, this gives me the advantage of choosing terrain and forces them to come to me.

It's a slow approach but effective I've found.

My show down with the crusader styates has been forsealled by France starting a fight with me. They just don't know when to quit and insist on trying to take me on. I'm going to be tied up for a while dealing with them, made more annoying by the fact thhat most of my best generals are stuck on an island while a port is being built. Still I'll be able to hammer them severly very soon, but I think this might bring the Crusader states into the fight as well.

It looks like it's going to be a bloody next few years for the Scottish empire!

[dimitrios the samian]

Hi Guys ,,
There is a mod that I downloaded years ago and played when VI was in its infacy !! The GH are amped up and I remember playing it only for a short time due to the fact I was still learning the ropes .. According to some comments I got back it was modded to do just what you want !!
More later if nobody chimes in and gives the name as I can't recall it ?
cheers
DTS

[Cmdrnarrain]

Please do, I am very interested in this mod.

[bamff]

Me too - can anyone shed any light on this mod?