Backroom is closed

[Papewaio]

Mikeus Enjoy the South Australian Wine it sure beats the Queensland Whine.

[Mikeus Caesar]

Mikeus Enjoy the South Australian Wine it sure beats the Queensland Whine.

Talking of Australian alcohols, found a lager i've become quite fond of - Hahn. Very nice, gets you drunk rather quick.

As for wine, well, haven't had a chance to sample much of that so far. What i've had though is quite nice, shame i can't remember the name of it.

[Gregoshi]

Mikeus Enjoy the South Australian Wine it sure beats the Queensland Whine.

How could I have forgotten about Mikeus' move? My bad.

I just didn't want us Americans unjustly taking the rap for the Backroom closure when there are so many other reasons (legitimate or not) to tweak our noses once the Backroom re-opens.

[Fragony]

Open it up already, we have some not that great developments in Pakistan.

[Ronin]

exactly....it´s the 27th already....and there are news to be discussed.

open it please.

[Andres]

You can always come to the Gameroom to play mafia.

It involves debate, logic, some psychology, analysis AND you can lynch/kill your opponents without getting a warning.

[FactionHeir]

You can always come to the Gameroom to play mafia.

It involves debate, logic, some psychology, analysis AND you can lynch/kill your opponents without getting a warning.

That is quite sig worthy. If I had space I'd add it

[Ronin]

You can always come to the Gameroom to play mafia.

It involves debate, logic, some psychology, analysis AND you can lynch/kill your opponents without getting a warning.

but that doesn´t satisfy my bloodlust....

[Adrian II]

Open it up already, we have some not that great developments in Pakistan.

I feel tremendous forces in this forum, let's re-open the Backroom and unleash them.

[InsaneApache]

Backroom open should be. Yes? Yoda has proclaimed.

In other news; The Trotters lost two nil away to the Toffees on Boxing day.

[Odin]

At this point maybe it should be kept closed. That would certainly sift out the riff raff and bring the place back to a more Total war fan friendly site. Backrooms are nice and all, but there are plenty of forums to haggle over politics, its not like were getting a bunch of fresh faces/idea's in there these days anyway.

I say keep it closed through Easter at least, that ought to clear out the undesirables.

[Vladimir]

But, like you said: This is TOTAL WAR!!!

Hey, how can I import a smilie from TWC?

Tehehe Didn't know I could do that to the moving pictures.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

1. Upload it to -say- imageshack and use it as an image; or
2. Convince Tosa to add it to the smiley list.

.

[FactionHeir]

In my opinion it ought to stay closed till the new year. Start anew and all.

[Marshal Murat]

Opened! Yay!

Now could we move the Bhutto over or delete it?

[Tribesman]

At this point maybe it should be kept closed. That would certainly sift out the riff raff and bring the place back to a more Total war fan friendly site.

By "riff raff "would that include criminals who served prison time for being slightly naughty even though their parents gave them a beating for being naughty to teach them a lesson not to be naughty ....and not to moan that they only have a thouroughly undeserved lowly member status instead of a really deserved senior one .........or does it include people like myself ?

[Odin]

By "riff raff "would that include criminals who served prison time for being slightly naughty even though their parents gave them a beating for being naughty to teach them a lesson not to be naughty ....and not to moan that they only have a thouroughly undeserved lowly member status instead of a really deserved senior one .........or does it include people like myself ?

Why you arent a senior member is beyond me. Of course it includes people like you Tribesman it would be completely out of charecter for me to use my broad brush to paint a picture but leave out one of the props from the backround.

It would include me as well, I certainly have very little to contribute at this point however my overreaction schticts have been fairly entertaining (for me at least).

But hey everyone has to take a dump once a day might as well keep the backroom around, every establishment should have a toilet.

[Tribesman]

Fair play to ya Odin , the second "not" was clearly an error , thanks for pointing it out .

[TosaInu]

...and not to moan that they only have a thouroughly undeserved lowly member status instead of a really deserved senior one .........or does it include people like myself ?

Hello,

The member issue again. What do people want really?

To address the first point first: there are several people who are pretty much Backroom only who are Senior Member. Made Senior Member by me years ago, not because they are special friends of me, but because, from the little I think to see when occasionally reading that forum, they are having civil arguments. About the same motivation why other people from other forums in this board can be 'promoted'.

While not all forums interest me in equal amounts, there are no forums that shouldn't be there when people are having fun in a friendly way.


What do people want?

Quite a few things have been tried in the over eight years this place exists, ranging from all equal to requested small differences in 'status' (avatars, privileges, post count, ranking stars). Some privileges are initially fabricated by me (after reading mixed feedback and pondering). The Senior Member group for example is made to promote interacting nicely with others. At the same time it allows me to stretch the options step by step (such as increasing the size of the PM box). The forum has crashed, slowed down to a halt and simply been locked down more than once because of size/performance problems. Around 2001, the forum had to be cut down from over 100,000 to 10,000 post or less or it would exist any longer. The pruning policy was a headache: which posts to save and what to delete when the 10,000 mark is hit again. So, yes I'm conditioned to be cautious, generally.

Each year a few Members are 'promoted' to Senior Member, a few only. Not being promoted doesn't mean you don't deserve it, more that others had good cards too and won the lottery. A Senior Member doesn't have much special that others don't have, and Members or Junior Members are certainly not lowly or irrelevant. A larger PM box (it's already larger for anyone than was possible in the past and arrangements in urgency are possible), Senior in the membertitle, slightly less flood to post and that's it.

Are people unhappy with this? Does anyone know a perfect system (if there is such a thing), or should that perfect system be avoided at all costs? Differences, after all, are a good inspiration to taunt.

'I expected better from a Senior member'.
'Lowly member'.
'Low postcount'.
'Shut up n00b'.

[Odin]

Hello,

The member issue again. What do people want really?

To address the first point first: there are several people who are pretty much Backroom only who are Senior Member. Made Senior Member by me years ago, not because they are special friends of me, but because, from the little I think to see when occasionally reading that forum, they are having civil arguments. About the same motivation why other people from other forums in this board can be 'promoted'.

While not all forums interest me in equal amounts, there are no forums that shouldn't be there when people are having fun in a friendly way.


What do people want?

Quite a few things have been tried in the over eight years this place exists, ranging from all equal to requested small differences in 'status' (avatars, privileges, post count, ranking stars). Some privileges are initially fabricated by me (after reading mixed feedback and pondering). The Senior Member group for example is made to promote interacting nicely with others. At the same time it allows me to stretch the options step by step (such as increasing the size of the PM box). The forum has crashed, slowed down to a halt and simply been locked down more than once because of size/performance problems. Around 2001, the forum had to be cut down from over 100,000 to 10,000 post or less or it would exist any longer. The pruning policy was a headache: which posts to save and what to delete when the 10,000 mark is hit again. So, yes I'm conditioned to be cautious, generally.

Each year a few Members are 'promoted' to Senior Member, a few only. Not being promoted doesn't mean you don't deserve it, more that others had good cards too and won the lottery. A Senior Member doesn't have much special that others don't have, and Members or Junior Members are certainly not lowly or irrelevant. A larger PM box (it's already larger for anyone than was possible in the past and arrangements in urgency are possible), Senior in the membertitle, slightly less flood to post and that's it.

Are people unhappy with this? Does anyone know a perfect system (if there is such a thing), or should that perfect system be avoided at all costs? Differences, after all, are a good inspiration to taunt.

'I expected better from a Senior member'.
'Lowly member'.
'Low postcount'.
'Shut up n00b'.

Wasnt expecting this but i'll bite. I think that for some there is a sense of entitlement of distinction when a certain post count is reached or time tenure. Senior member means very little as you pointed out, and that might be part of the problem. Since it has a minimal signifigance by way of rights/capabilities why should it be reserved to a few members a year?

Clearly someone like Tribesman is a Senior Member, perhaps not in title but he has added content to the site and has stuck with it through years of participation. In essence he is a senior member, and thats because senior membership has really no defined parameter other then to have civil arguments.

If there were some defined parameter to aspire too and some benefit (choice icons, special titles) then structure of attaining that level would be common knowledge. No one would have a gripe as it would be a policy in place. It could something as simple as post count, or something as defined as total warning points devided by post count?

I dont see it as a really big issue, I view anyone who has been here for more then a couple of years as senior member anyway. However a defined policy and reward system seems to work at other message boards. If you do find it troublesome that might be a method to look at. Otherwise the org will most likely continue to function as is with minimal problems.

[Andres]

Senior Member
Senior Member is an honorific, used to recognize members' contributions to the overall good of the Org.

Contributions can range from creative endeavours (such as mods, art, guides and stories) to leadership and commitment (organization of community efforts, running events) to being a fine, honourable, upstanding member of the community. It is a way to recognize and say "thank you" to those who make the TW community a better place. Post count doesn't matter much: there are Senior Member's with less than 400 posts, and Members with thousands.

[Vladimir]

There are many members who have earned senior membership by their Backroom contributions and I actively support many of them. I believe the current policy is fine. Those who have it, generally deserve it.

That being said; DON'T make me a senior member, ever. I'd have to start acting responsibly and not be able to post angry one liners from work!

[Odin]

Originally Posted by The Guild FAQ
Senior Member
Senior Member is an honorific, used to recognize members' contributions to the overall good of the Org.

Contributions can range from creative endeavours (such as mods, art, guides and stories) to leadership and commitment (organization of community efforts, running events) to being a fine, honourable, upstanding member of the community. It is a way to recognize and say "thank you" to those who make the TW community a better place. Post count doesn't matter much: there are Senior Member's with less than 400 posts, and Members with thousands.

Was that in reply to Tosa Andres? I assume he knows what the Faq says and his questions were not rhetorical (at least they didnt read that way to me, hence my reply).

Since you decided to enter into the conversation with a valid point of reference lets have a look at it. This definition is vague at best.

It is a way to recognize and say "thank you" to those who make the TW community a better place.

that in itself is part of the problem because what determines if someones participation makes it a better place?

The Faq you posted dosent state that there is a specific entity that makes that determination, not only that but an Admin is asking

What do people want?

.

With notions like "fine" and "honourable" those are subjective. One could even look at your reply to this thread as a less then honorable endevor given the context of your post, in relation to the expressed desire of the admin posting.

I dont believe that to be the case, but the overall point is its vague and very subjective. Status quo seems to be okay, I dont see many people whinning about senior member status but if an Admin is asking then why not offer something new, or outside of the definition already applied?

[Pannonian]

Was that in reply to Tosa Andres? I assume he knows what the Faq says and his questions were not rhetorical (at least they didnt read that way to me, hence my reply).

Since you decided to enter into the conversation with a valid point of reference lets have a look at it. This definition is vague at best. that in itself is part of the problem because what determines if someones participation makes it a better place?

The Faq you posted dosent state that there is a specific entity that makes that determination, not only that but an Admin is asking .

With notions like "fine" and "honourable" those are subjective. One could even look at your reply to this thread as a less then honorable endevor given the context of your post, in relation to the expressed desire of the admin posting.

I dont believe that to be the case, but the overall point is its vague and very subjective. Status quo seems to be okay, I dont see many people whinning about senior member status but if an Admin is asking then why not offer something new, or outside of the definition already applied?

AIUI, from previous threads on the subject (the topic comes up every now and then), the moderators get together every so often to nominate and discuss candidates for promotion, and a limited few are duly promoted. If my experience in the TWC's CdeC is any guide, the discussion is entirely subjective, yet, because it's a process involving human scrutiny and not just automatic qualification by numbers, it's rigorous but fair, flexible enough to include many areas of contribution but strict enough to weed out undesirables.

[Odin]

AIUI, from previous threads on the subject (the topic comes up every now and then), the moderators get together every so often to nominate and discuss candidates for promotion, and a limited few are duly promoted. If my experience in the TWC's CdeC is any guide, the discussion is entirely subjective, yet, because it's a process involving human scrutiny and not just automatic qualification by numbers, it's rigorous but fair, flexible enough to include many areas of contribution but strict enough to weed out undesirables.

Wonderful. Since an Admin is asking publically what users want I assume its an open topic for discussion. If it isnt then perhaps the thread should be locked.

Your post sounds pretty logical to me, however if there is room for growth why not have titles, badges or custom avatars? None of which would be unique to the Org and if a policy was adopted to obtain those rewards that might inspire less dissatisfaction with the current system and more compliance.

As far as the fairness part of it, as Tosa intimates there isnt a whole lot of signifigant difference for a senior member anyway. Maybe there should be? Maybe thats something forum members should want to aspire too? Having a completely arbitrary method by which to obtain this status further minimalizes its value.

Maybe you consider it rigorous and fair, but what if there are forum members here who think some of the mods/admin are idiots? Of course they could leave and frequent another forum but that hardly equates to value for the Org. Message boards usually stay afloat by the numbers they generate.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this. At least here at the org from time to time a mod/admin will pose the question for the community to address, that in itself has value.

[FactionHeir]

I think the current method is adequate and doesn't need much modification.

If you had a set of rules that dictated exactly what is needed to get promoted to the next level, you'd have a group of people doing exactly that just to get to the next level and the next after that without actually believing in those values behind the set of rules or even caring about them. You can see examples of this on other boards and indeed in games (powergamers, people who just want to be the "best" "achieve everything" etc), and making the higher titles less achievable and not subject to a set rule weeds a lot of those out, especially since there also is a quota per annum.

The selection process being somewhat mysterious, arbitrary and subject to staff decision reduces the amount of people who just want a title for the sake of having a title and being able to say to someone else "I am senior and therefore better than you".

[Pannonian]

Wonderful. Since an Admin is asking publically what users want I assume its an open topic for discussion. If it isnt then perhaps the thread should be locked.

Your post sounds pretty logical to me, however if there is room for growth why not have titles, badges or custom avatars? None of which would be unique to the Org and if a policy was adopted to obtain those rewards that might inspire less dissatisfaction with the current system and more compliance.

As far as the fairness part of it, as Tosa intimates there isnt a whole lot of signifigant difference for a senior member anyway. Maybe there should be? Maybe thats something forum members should want to aspire too? Having a completely arbitrary method by which to obtain this status further minimalizes its value.

Maybe you consider it rigorous and fair, but what if there are forum members here who think some of the mods/admin are idiots? Of course they could leave and frequent another forum but that hardly equates to value for the Org. Message boards usually stay afloat by the numbers they generate.

Anyway, I've said my piece on this. At least here at the org from time to time a mod/admin will pose the question for the community to address, that in itself has value.

At TWC, citizenship (the equivalent of senior membership here) is a prerequisite for certain posts, most notably moderator. In addition to the badge and the hugely increased PM allowance, this is probably the biggest perk of citizenship. Here at the Org, senior membership is not a prequisite for such things, although it can help bring people to the notice of admins who decide such things - Banquo's Ghost was a lowly member when he became a Backroom moderator, and no-one can quibble with his promotion to staff.

At TWC, there's a member-driven body for enacting changes, called the Curia. It's only open to participation by citizens. However, my experience of it, shared by many others who've taken part in the site's administration in some form or other, is that it, as a body, is unfit for much more than handing out badges, which it's been doing copiously. Other than that, Questions and Suggestions, which is open to everyone, can be used for discussing changes or additions to the site, and as such, is little different from the Org's Watchtower. I've been trying my best to reform and direct the Curia towards doing something useful, as have other people, and hopefully there will be a change in culture some time.

As for badges, avatars and so on: someone still has to do them and implement them, even after they've been handed out. TWC is lucky in that there are a number of members who are happy to design such things, and admins who are willing to spend time implementing them. One of the main complaints about the Curia as a body, alluded to in the previous paragraph, is that it is willing enough to suggest ideas, but not willing enough to provide personnel to put them into action. As such, it had fallen into some measure of contempt from staff and others who are indeed willing to put some time and effort back into the community. As someone put it rather bluntly: the people who contribute greatly are the modders who bring people to the site and the staff who keep the site running, everything else is BS. Perhaps thanks to some plain arguments over this, and an infusion of eager new blood, it seems to have invigorated a bit very recently, but it takes time to see a project through, and it remains to be seen whether it can keep this going for a while.

Edit: I described the ability to beome a moderator as probably the biggest perk of citizenship. This is highly disputable, especially for those who have to patrol the discussion areas (the equivalent of the Backroom).

[Tribesman]

Hello,

The member issue again. What do people want really?

Sorry Tosa , that post you quoted was a piss take directed at what another had written a while ago .

[caravel]

As far as the fairness part of it, as Tosa intimates there isnt a whole lot of signifigant difference for a senior member anyway. Maybe there should be? Maybe thats something forum members should want to aspire too? Having a completely arbitrary method by which to obtain this status further minimalizes its value.

Post count related ranks and various toys such as titles, badges and special avatars given as rewards tend to attract the wrong kind of forumite. The .org doesn't need a "Praetorian Guard" elite or any such nonsense. Personally I think that if they abolished Senior Membership today that most current Senior Members could deal with it, though if Senior Membership had been based on huge postcounts, badges and toys then I could see a lot of them spitting their dummies out and throwing the aforementioned toys out of their prams.

[Odin]

Post count related ranks and various toys such as titles, badges and special avatars given as rewards tend to attract the wrong kind of forumite. The .org doesn't need a "Praetorian Guard" elite or any such nonsense. Personally I think that if they abolished Senior Membership today that most current Senior Members could deal with it, though if Senior Membership had been based on huge postcounts, badges and toys then I could see a lot of them spitting their dummies out and throwing the aforementioned toys out of their prams.

Fine with me, again i didnt take Tosa's post as rhetorical but rather an invitation to discuss the issue. I have no doubt that my extended 2 cents of an opinion will not have a baring on the final outcome of it. I suspect the status quo will remain.