Trade deficit and Holy Orders

[Emperor[1G]]

Picked the game up a few weeks back and Ive been perusing the forums for some info. Most of it Ive found, but there are two nagging issues Im having in my 2nd play through.

1. Many of my cities are getting pissy due to what I think it shows as a trade deficit. Now Ive built roads, markets, wharf's, shipyards etcetc. Whats the best way to combat this? I get admin issues as well but I assume building town halls and the like take care of that.

2. Holy Orders. Im playing England this time through and can't seem to land either the Temp's or the Hosp's. My first game as France they just appeared.So far this game, I have successfully completed 2 crusades and Im generally a reputable nation, but no holies. Any ideas?

thanks in advance

[FactionHeir]

Law reduces corruption, which tends to be high in settlements further away from the capital. Town halls help with that.
As for income, taxes is the main thing. Followed by trade and farming and mining respectively. I would recommend taxes always high or very high unless you are pursuing a growth policy.
When building, always get 1 or 2 levels of farming for a good base income, then go for the market line of buildings after building level 1 roads.
When the next market building takes rather long to build (fairground+) you should build a port, merchant's wharf, shipwright.
Then get the 2nd level roads.

As for orders, it takes a while and depends on many things. Like how close your regions are to factions and other regions with higher amounts of non christian faiths, how many crusades you ran and successfully etc. They will come in time, probably after your next crusade even. The more generals join a crusade, the more points you get towards the guild. Also, you can only have EITHER templars or hospitallers. The one you pick first you are stuck with. Hospitallers are inherently better and give more bonusses to your cities.

However, you can eventually hire templars (but not build their order houses) if you capture a settlement that has a templar guild in it.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

you need to have some specific regions to have the hosp or temp orders ..
check the descr_regions.txt fail to find out in which province you can get the templar/hospitaller guild offer and take those provinces ..
once you have them do not accept any other guild offer and you should get them sooner or later

[FactionHeir]

you need to have some specific regions to have the hosp or temp orders ..
check the descr_regions.txt fail to find out in which province you can get the templar/hospitaller guild offer and take those provinces ..
once you have them do not accept any other guild offer and you should get them sooner or later

That is absolutely wrong I'm afraid.

While the descr_regions file does give some pointers, the only thing is actually does is increase the likelihood of the guild being offered if several guild prerequisites are met for that settlement rather than all chances being equal.

In addition, this file does not point in any way to hospitallers or templars in it unless you are playing some modded game. Even then again it wouldn't do much at all.

[Emperor[1G]]

So, the file doesnt dictate EXACTLY what provinces will have it. Does having other guilds like Swordsmith/Merchants etc negate any chances of getting the Holy Orders?

Also, if I capture an HRE city with a Teutonic guild, will I have the option to create them?

[FactionHeir]

The file doesn't dictate anything. What it does do is this:
Say you got 300 points for explorer's guild and 300 for swordsmith guild in a city.
Normally that means you have a 50-50 chance of getting either offered at turn start (if no other places have eligible guild offers)
Now if that file says that region has explorer's guild, the chances will be titled. Not sure exactly how much, but likely something like 75-25, if points stay the same.

So if you don't have enough points in explorer's guild at that region, having that piece of code in the file won't do anything for you. And as I said, templars and hospitallers are not in the file at all.

You can only have one guild per settlement.
Order houses are available for BOTH cities and castles which is quite useful.
The only other guild this applies to is the swordsmith guild.

All other guilds are either castle or city.

As for teutons, if you capture their order house, you cannot recruit them as they are HRE only. Same with Santiago.

[Zarky]

Joining and finishing successful crusade give "guild points" to every city you own, and having high chivalry governor in a city gives points every turn (need over 4 chivalry) this is main way you will ever get Holy order offers, keep high chivalry governors in town, that´s it.

[ReiseReise]

My understanding of trade, along with a few questions I am not sure of:
*Goods generate income at the source and destination of each trade route. The incomes on each end are not the same, but are never negative. Trade deficits don't exist because the wealth of your nation as a whole is not in the game. All that matters is the government's wealth and it increases with any trade whether it is an import or an export, since your 'trade' income is actually from customs duties, not the actual business transactions.
*Markets affect both land and sea trade. They increase income from exports only. They do not effect the income in the other city on the importing end of the route.
*Ports are the same but obviously for sea trade only.
*Sea exports can only be sent to one city for each 'naval trade route' Trade docks (and maybe highest level port? i don't recall) increase number of routes. A city can have sea imports from any number of cities regardless of the number of routes available.
*The AI automatically picks the most profitable routes for you. Unknown to me: When choosing between a domestic or foreign route, does it pick the most valuable export route or does it take into account the import income on the other end of a domestic route? Example: myCity can export Trinkets for 200 income in myCity and 100 income in myOther city for a total of 300, or it can export Trinkets to foreignCity for 250 income in myCity. Which one will it chose? I would guess it chooses the more valuable domestic route but I am not certain.
*Enemy/rebel armies on your roads will decrease (or completely stop?) trade on that road. Question: Do enemy fleets on the trade route lines on the seas decrease naval trade?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

To earn money you have to trade. In the opening of the campaign you will earn most of your money by taxing the hell out your peasants. In the later stages trade will be a very important source of income. In my current campaign I earn 55,000 with trade, 42,000 with taxes, 18,500 with farming and 7,500 with mining. You will earn a lot of money with sea trade.

Sea trade:
Ports open trade routes: port = 1, shipwright = 2 , dockyard = 3 and naval dry dock = 4 (after the discovery of gunpowder). The other sea trade buildings (merchants wharf etc.) increase the sea trade by 10% each per commodity that is being exported. An highly lucrative city as Antioch can trade with several cities and will have an huge increase in sea trade by the port line buildings. Cities also earn money by importing goods but that is nothing compared to exports. Markets do not increase sea trade.

Land trade:
Dirt roads don't improve trade. Land trade works as sea trade with the exception that there are no trade fleets. Any city trades some commodities with the neighboring cities / castles. Markets increase the trade of the commodities with 10%. Antioch that is neighboring a lot of cities will trade with them. since the trade goods of Antioch have a high base value, the land trade of Antioch is also very lucrative.

[ReiseReise]

You must be mistaken Monsieur.
Ports (Port, Shipyard, Dockyard, Naval Drydock) are mainly for building ships. They also increase trade as I mentioned. Top 2 levels are only available in castles.
Sea Trade (Merch Wharf, Warehouse, Dockyards) increase trade and also the number of trade routes. Require Port and only available in cities.

Interestingly, as you said, dirt roads do not seem to increase trade.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You must be mistaken Monsieur.
Ports (Port, Shipyard, Dockyard, Naval Drydock) are mainly for building ships. They also increase trade as I mentioned. Top 2 levels are only available in castles.
Sea Trade (Merch Wharf, Warehouse, Dockyards) increase trade and also the number of trade routes. Require Port and only available in cities.

No I am not. This has been dicussed before in another thread. After some testing it came out that ports etc. gives the most increase to sea trade.

[FactionHeir]

You are both correct to some extent.

Ports increase trade base income by 2,3,4,5 respectively by level but do not increase trade fleets
Sea trade increases trade base income by 2,3,4 respectively by level and also increases trade fleets by 1,2,3

Note that I said trade base income. That means that if your region has little trade to begin with, increasing that won't do a lot, so its more profitable for regions with high amounts of tradable resources.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

You are both correct to some extent.

Ports increase trade base income by 2,3,4,5 respectively by level but do not increase trade fleets
Sea trade increases trade base income by 2,3,4 respectively by level and also increases trade fleets by 1,2,3

Note that I said trade base income. That means that if your region has little trade to begin with, increasing that won't do a lot, so its more profitable for regions with high amounts of tradable resources.

This is according to the EDB. But that is not correct. In my current campaign Antioch has a shipwright (level 2 port) and a docklands (level 3 warehouse). According to you Antioch should have three trade fleets. However Antioch is exporting (= trade fleet) to two other cities. Bologna has a port and is exporting to one city, Florence has a shipwright and no warehouse and is exporting to two cities. In the other thread it was reported that in this case the EDB is wrong. It is something hard coded.

[FactionHeir]

It needs some place to export to. Antioch is surrounded by castles, bologna and florence by cities.
Castles don't get trade fleets, cities do.

I think the way you want to be testing it is this:

Claim all regions around say Antioch. Now process_cq your way through to make all of them huge cities.
Destroy any ports you can find.
Now give each settlement there 1 port and nothing else. Note the trade income (check the breakdown screen for trade)

Save and exit.
Mod your EDB so that the wharf range does NOT increase trade base income but fleets only.
Up your game and build a wharf at antioch, going up the levels with this building only.
End turn after each build just in case.
Does the trade change as a result of those trade fleets?

[Ibn-Khaldun]

The file doesn't dictate anything. What it does do is this:
Say you got 300 points for explorer's guild and 300 for swordsmith guild in a city.
Normally that means you have a 50-50 chance of getting either offered at turn start (if no other places have eligible guild offers)
Now if that file says that region has explorer's guild, the chances will be titled. Not sure exactly how much, but likely something like 75-25, if points stay the same.

So if you don't have enough points in explorer's guild at that region, having that piece of code in the file won't do anything for you. And as I said, templars and hospitallers are not in the file at all.

You can only have one guild per settlement.
Order houses are available for BOTH cities and castles which is quite useful.
The only other guild this applies to is the swordsmith guild.

All other guilds are either castle or city.

As for teutons, if you capture their order house, you cannot recruit them as they are HRE only. Same with Santiago.

all this time i thought that this file will show where these guilds appear ..
now i understand why i never had some guilds offered in certain provinces alltough the file says that i should get them ..
now i know that i should play more game and look less those files ...
sorry for giving wrong information

[Monsieur Alphonse]

It needs some place to export to. Antioch is surrounded by castles, bologna and florence by cities.
Castles don't get trade fleets, cities do.

I think the way you want to be testing it is this:

Claim all regions around say Antioch. Now process_cq your way through to make all of them huge cities.
Destroy any ports you can find.
Now give each settlement there 1 port and nothing else. Note the trade income (check the breakdown screen for trade)

Save and exit.
Mod your EDB so that the wharf range does NOT increase trade base income but fleets only.
Up your game and build a wharf at antioch, going up the levels with this building only.
End turn after each build just in case.
Does the trade change as a result of those trade fleets?

I don't think it is necessary to test it. In my campaign Antioch is surrounded by Huge cities. All my huge cities have a shipwright and two trade fleets. Castles with a shipwright have also two trade fleets.

[FactionHeir]

My point is that it isn't about the lines and ships you see on the strat map, but the effect of the trade fleet (which may or may not be displayed on the strat map with a special graphic) on your actual trade income.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I am not talking about the little ships on the campaign map, but about the trade details once you are in a settlement. According to the trade summary scroll all my cities and castles that have a shipwright have two trade fleets. They export to two other settlements. I build a level 2 warehouse in a city that had only a port and the sea export didn't increased much; there was no extra export to an other city /castle. when I build a shipwright an extra export destination appeared. Exporting to an other city (by sea) will boost your city's trade the most.

[FactionHeir]

Hmmm interesting. I don't have a lot of time to confirm, but its an interesting find.
But one thing I would like you to do before drawing any conclusions:
What if you don't build any sea trade buildings (only ports themselves). Do you still get 3 fleets with say a dockyard (and 1 with port, 2 with shipwright) without having any of the sea trade buildings?

Also, can you please test this while not running any mods?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I don't run any mod. Castles with a port export to one other settlement, castles with a shipwright to two settlements.

I remember from the last discussion (in the beginning of 2007) that the effect of ports and warehouses is reversed. Ports do to trade what warehouses should do and vice versa

[igor]

I don't run any mod. Castles with a port export to one other settlement, castles with a shipwright to two settlements.

I remember from the last discussion (in the beginning of 2007) that the effect of ports and warehouses is reversed. Ports do to trade what warehouses should do and vice versa

Agreed on this reverse mistake, or should we say bug.

There is other thing though. The numbers in settlement trade scroll are not always right, you earn more (or less) than these numbers show. It can be easily tested. (btw I know about blinking icons, I'm not talking about that).

I have a suspicion, that a castle settlement earns less from the trade that the scroll shows. I think they implemented a trade penalty for the castle settlement, which they forgot to show in the settlement scroll. I'm not at the right computer now to back my claims with some data, I'll test it later and post the numbers.

[igor]

Regarding trade deficit or economic problems.

If you don't have enough money the solution is very simple but not intuitive. I think many players just miss that solution. You should have only as many soldiers as you can afford. Simple as that.

When playing Scotland for exampe the Nobles award me with some mailed knights for completing a mission. They cost me some 1000 florins per turn, there's no building I can build to neutralise that cost and at the moment I don't need them for anything else than parading around the settlement and my free-upkeep militia is good enough for parading and keeping the taxpayers quiet. The most logical thing to do is to disband the guys.

The lesson learned already in the STW is to have exactly that many soldiers that one needs, just as many to feel confident that you are able to repel any possible immediate threat or achieve the offensive goal and not one single mail knight more.

[ReiseReise]

Interesting, I was unaware of the Port/Sea Trade bug.

@igor I agree completley. The 4 mailed knights is one of the most useless rewards if you don't have an immediate need for them. I either disband them, or if I am besieging a nearby settlement I use them as my Forlorn Hope

In a recent Byz campaign, after taking Venice I bought Bologna from the HRE and was given a garrison of 6 (SIX) Mercenary Frankish Knights in the process. Although their combined recruitment cost was almost equal to the amount I paid for the city (and therefore I nearly got the city 'for free'), the 6x300=1800/turn upkeep was too much to bear and I disbanded them all.

Edit: Is the bug only for castles or for cities as well? Also, I am not talking about net trade income, only the number of export routes.

[DVX BELLORVM]

I don't run any mod. Castles with a port export to one other settlement, castles with a shipwright to two settlements.

I remember from the last discussion (in the beginning of 2007) that the effect of ports and warehouses is reversed. Ports do to trade what warehouses should do and vice versa

This is "fixed" in Kingdoms, where the merchant wharfs are responsible for the number of trade fleets, not the ports (as in vanilla).

[ReiseReise]

Does the Kingdoms fix affect Vanilla, or only if I am playing a Kingdoms campaign?

[DVX BELLORVM]

It only affects Kingdoms.

[Alpedar]

Does mods uising kingdom's exe incorporate this?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Edit: Is the bug only for castles or for cities as well? Also, I am not talking about net trade income, only the number of export routes.

It affects both.

[mbrasher1]

Once you are at a city with a crusade, all of your generals with sufficient units can join the crusade just before you bash the gates down. This has the effect of getting all of your units an experience bonus, plus you have had so many generals join crusades that it starts triggering holy order houses anywhere you want them -- cities, castles, etc.

[Alpedar]

If you join crusede one turn before you finish it, you will benefit from zero upkeep of crusading forces without desertion.