VanillaMod Suggestions thread

[oz_wwjd]

Would it be possible to educate the AI into not running a full calvary carge over a line of Longbowmen with stakes ion front of them? I've had a few tough battles,that is until the AI stupidly decided to destroy it's entire calvary force by doing this..

[FactionHeir]

Its never done that in any of my tests on field battles. The only time it does so is in sieges, and there you can't code it.

[cambovenzi]

really a somewhat simple, but great mod.
im really liking it.

i think i come off as complaining too much, so i will turn my ideas or complaints into suggestions and questions.

im playing with the english:

1. i like what you did with the armoured sergeants and billmen as an offensive+defensive combo or alternative. however, right in the description, it says that the billhook is both a great offensive AND defensive weapon. while i see the need and want for a lower defensive number, as well as the fact that they are unarmored compared to heavier versions, i think it is realistically a little too low. it is currently at 3 i believe, with no armor.

looking over at even plain town militia, i see a 7 defense rating.(some from shield obviously, but still. both have 3 def from skill)
i highly doubt town militia can defend themselves more than twice as well as trained billmen.
this got me to thinking. could it be that town militia would give billmen a hard time?
i ran some custom battles.
using the billmen i somewhat easily dispatched the town militia(8 or 9 out of 10 IIRC), but not w/o a fight. partly due to a repetitive weak AI manuever that withdraws about 15 yards, and then comes back for more. allowing the billmen to gtet extra charge value, and also often kills the TM's general.
playing as the town militia however, i was able to win 5 of 10 battles, just standing still.
not really going for high ground, or snow bonus' or anything. just with maybe a lone tree sitting somewhere near them.

maybe its just me, but i dont think "heavy infantry" billmen should be having serious trouble with the lightest of lightly trained infantry militia.

i would suggest adding atleast a single point or two to their base skill defense, at the very least.
as well as possibly looking into weakening TM a small amount.

im terrified to even think about matching them up against cavalry, which they are supposed to handle decently well.


also these weak, unarmored, shieldless billmen have 48 men in a unit, cost 480 to train(190 more than TM), and have a 160 upkeep cost.
in comparison to armored sergeants available at the same time:
60 men in a unit. 560 training cost(cheaper to make, per individual), 155 upkeep cost.
they have 8 attack and 16 defense.(7 from shield, 4 from skill, 5 from armor)
they are armored, shielded, and have more men. why is it that they have a lower upkeep cost?

also i have not yet had much experience with the tech tree's, but if other versions of the billmen are still around, you might want to look into their recruiting costs or skills.
i saw a better version with a slightly lower cost.(heavy bill militia have 12 att and 10 def. reg billmen are 12/3.)
if they are not still in the campaign game like i suspect, it really isnt a big deal at all. but
are still in custom battles.(which is how i saw it)

edit UPDATE: i ran some tests against cavalry that i talked about.
i took some scottish "border horses"(7/10 with 3 charge) which are about the weakest cav i could find, and ran them right into the billmen.
more than half of the billmen died within seconds of impact and they routed shortly thereafter
i tried to play as billmen vs BH's. not pretty. by the time the "my general is killed" cutscene is over, i am down to ~20men wile they are near full force. after some favorable melee combat, they decide to pull away when we are both at around 8-10 men. they then charge again, killing off the rest of my unit.

i have come to the conclusion that it is safe to say Billmen are almost completely useless and overpriced.
nothing more than high attack flanking troops with limited speed, and cannot hold up against almost anything in battle.


2. mercenaries. they have a lower upkeep than most units.
to me, that isnt how it should be.
merc's arent going to just stay with you cheaply forever based on a one time slightly higher fee.
i would imagine you would have to pay them more than regular troops to stick around, not less.
for example i saw a group of spearmen with a 180 upkeep. those are good solid spearmen, better than most early infantry.

[cambovenzi]

oh no
i tried a strategy as billmen against those light cav.
i spread my line down to a 2 man depth, in what turned out to be a very, very, very bad idea.
when the cavalry charged me i lost all but 6 of my 48 men on impact.

[FactionHeir]

Against cavalry its normal to want a deep formation.

Regarding billmen, there are 4 types, from worst to best: Bill militia, billmen, heavy bill militia and billmen.
Their upkeep scales, but not significantly as you require higher level tech buildings to access better versions, and lower versions eventually phase out.
Think of the lesser billmen as peasants with a bit of training and a weapon. Higher billmen as standard heavy infantry.

Non-heavy bills have very little armor and tend to be effective in clsoe quarters against cavalry - they are not meant to take a charge, but rather charge or pin down the cavalry. If you want a unit to take a charge, use spears or pikes - these consequently are slightly less good at killing cavalry in close combat and will fall more easily than bill type units against heavy infantry due to lacking the armor piercing attribute.

To make good use of light billmen, you want to be upgrading their armor using a blacksmith. Or use them mainly in flanking or urban battles. They will only be good against cavalry. Heavy billmen can deal with light-medium infantry and heavy cavalry. They still cannot take a charge, but will have better survivability and not fall to missiles as easily either.

Regarding upkeep for mercenaries, these are significantly higher than those for similar units. I.e. mercenary spearmen cost 180 upkeep while armored sergeants cost only 155. They also cost a lot more to hire, so I would need a precise example from you where you found that not to be the case?

[cambovenzi]

Against cavalry its normal to want a deep formation.

yeah that was just me messin around

Regarding billmen, there are 4 types, from worst to best: Bill militia, billmen, heavy bill militia and billmen.
Their upkeep scales, but not significantly as you require higher level tech buildings to access better versions, and lower versions eventually phase out.
Think of the lesser billmen as peasants with a bit of training and a weapon. Higher billmen as standard heavy infantry.

Non-heavy bills have very little armor and tend to be effective in close quarters against cavalry - they are not meant to take a charge, but rather charge or pin down the cavalry. If you want a unit to take a charge, use spears or pikes - these consequently are slightly less good at killing cavalry in close combat and will fall more easily than bill type units against heavy infantry due to lacking the armor piercing attribute.

To make good use of light billmen, you want to be upgrading their armor using a blacksmith. Or use them mainly in flanking or urban battles. They will only be good against cavalry. Heavy billmen can deal with light-medium infantry and heavy cavalry. They still cannot take a charge, but will have better survivability and not fall to missiles as easily either.

i think part of it is just my perception of the units.
town militia are exactly that, some bum folks from down the street that have been called into semi-organised duty.
i have a hard time believing they should be able to hold their own against somewhat more professional billmen.
thats just how i look at it anyways.

i will have to start thinking of the lower billmen as crappy militia troops who should solely be flankers and shock troops.
they still are massively overpriced.(480 i think?)
they are basically woodsmen with a cavalry bonus.

part of this is my bad.
i just realized they have the same statistics in regular m2tw than they do in your mod.
i could have sworn they were armored/higher defense.
i must have mistaken them for an armored variation.
however, they have a 230 recruiting cost in m2tw.

Regarding upkeep for mercenaries, these are significantly higher than those for similar units. I.e. mercenary spearmen cost 180 upkeep while armored sergeants cost only 155. They also cost a lot more to hire, so I would need a precise example from you where you found that not to be the case?

ill have to get back to you on that.

i noticed it was markedly lower upkeep than in the original version.
its more of a personal preference i guess.
in vmod, mercs are much more playable and usable long term. so much so IMO that it significantly weakens the use of homemade troops. (when you are able to recruit mercs immediately, and ones that might not even be available yet in your provinces[better units], for only a very slight increase in upkeep.)

anyways, thanks for the reply.
i knew part of what you were saying, but it will help re-inforce my knowledge of strategy.

[FactionHeir]

The stats shown on the sheet are similar (not identical) to unmodded for billmen, but I have given all of them also got a boost against cavalry (hidden attribute)

Town militia are no longer cheaper spearmen but actual light infantry. Not great against spear militia, but should do a bit better against other light infantry than spears do.

[oz_wwjd]

I just wondered,seeing with your changes,they know enough to avoid forts-lines now if they can help it.if they was any way to restore them to how they were in MTW1,where they where a challenge,but beatable,without a war of attrition,if you know what I mean. Thanks for the suggestions anyways.