Will You Buy a SecuRomed Empire?

[Husar]

You may be right Whacker (though my memory has holes concerning our chat about SecuROM), but isn't it interesting how almost none of what you say is in the OP?
All I was asking for was a decent reason to hate or avoid SecuROM, similar to the reasons you gave me to avoid StarForce, the OP certainly didn't provide any IMO. Now I think I'll be off to play some Kingdoms.

[Csargo]

WHACKER LIVES!!!! I voted undecided.

[Doug-Thompson]

Well, at least now I know why my optical drives keep failing.

[magnum]

Voted undecided as it'll be based upon the protection used at the time of release. Perhaps because at one time I was in the industry, I actually do own multiple copies of games that me and my friends play at my house on the network. At the same time, I generally rig things so I don't need CD's in drives as I dislike swapping them out all the time. (I've found that manufacturers are more than willing to sell you replacement CD's, but tend to refuse to replace a damaged one for free.) As such, it generally ends with 'how far' is the manufacturer willing to go to protect their game. There is definately a line that I will go up to and then no further, regardless of my interest in the game.

[caravel]

You're making a few assumptions there, SecuROM is not the only protection that doesn't allow you to play the game with a friend, I remember trying to play Operation Flashpoint on two computers and getting all sorts of errors(the way the copy protection is claimed to work) on the second install, but I do not remember any big outrage about the copy protection of the game, the outrage seems to be a sign of the times as well.

I've made no assumptions, nor did I state that SecuRom was the only copy protection of that kind. I'm well aware of safedisc, starforce and all the rest.

And yes, I would obviously like to be able to do that, but in theory Communism is also great and all people are equal though for some reason it never really worked. So in theory no copy protection would be great but in reality, most people would still get illegal copies, maybe not many more than today but Publishers keep trying to prevent those who pirate today from pirating in the future which IMO is their right unless it goes as far as spying on me or destroying my property(StarForce and whatever can come by turning off the firewall count into this).

You're going off on a tangent, leave the political analogies out of it. You seem to be a subscriber to a certain ideology whereby paying, being spied on and accepting your lot is all part of being a good capitalist and then you are overcome with admiration when you hear of the big corporations' schemes to rip you off, whereas getting something free, getting a good deal and buying software that has value for money, isn't full of invasive malware is somehow wrong. A few years back many games had a facility where 1 CD would allow a few multiplayer clients to use it. This means not having to buy a CD for each PC if you want to play against someone on a LAN. ID Software's games were heavily pirated but had hardly any copy protection at all. You can install most of them on Linux and all you need is a CD key and the pak files from the CDs. The CD doesn't need to be in the drive at all. Despite this, and despite releasing the source for their older titles, ID haven't gone out of business but have pretty much gone from strength to strength. Generally this is because those that acquired the pirate versions would never have bought the retail version anyway, and for some of those that did download pirate versions there is a good chance that they went on to buy retail versions if they liked the game enough. ID always releasing playable demos of their early games probably had something to do with it as well. Generally if a game is good people will rush out and buy it, if a game is a buggy pile of crap that people want to play test before they part with their money the "try before you buy" piracy comes int it.

What makes malware malware is the malicious intent, isn't it? Now where exactly is the malicious intent of SecuROM? the purpose is to stop illegal activities and it does so far not really harm normal customers, I had some problems installing games before but then a new DVD ROM usually solvesd that and I have to say I had unknowingly used the old drive with StarForce games which may well have been the cause for those problems.

Malware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malware as described in wikipedia (we can rely on it here as we're not talking history or politics) is sotware that infiltrates or damages without user consent. Considering that SecuRom is not installed with the users consent and installs a Win32 service without administrative permissions, that makes SecuRom, like starforce, malware in my book.

Securom doesn't stop illegal activities it prevents legitimate customers from making backups, requires the disc to be in the drive when the game is launched and pirates will pretty much always crack and distribute the games eventually anyway. It is you "average joe" that is inconvenienced, you that paid for the game and you that is being treated like a thief from the moment you try to install.

I just don't really see what StarForce destroys, except inviting your friend to play on your second computer(though I thought that is usually prohibited by the game itself when it checks the serial numbers of both clients), but then if I could afford a second computer....

Depends on the game, some games publishers are anal about that, whereas many others are not. Personally I don't see what's wrong with allowing the user to install the same disc on two pcs in their own home. To me that doesn't count as illegal copying. As to what starforce "destroys" that's not the issue here, though it will probably contribute to wearing out your optical drive, the issue is the installation of hidden malware, that is both pointless and potentially dangerous. The majority won't know this is installed at all. It will be interesting to see if there will be any issues with the version on the ETW disc. The track record for this type of software has not been good so far.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
No, never, definitely not! And I'll do my best for other people not to buy it either, wherever my word counts.

When all these three conditions are met, I'll consider buying it depending on its quality:

1. It will come clean, without any invasive or malicious software;
2. Customers of Kingdoms will be offered the option to get rid of the malicious Securom, or at least a clean Kingdoms version will be released;
3. Kingdoms and MiNO will be properly patched.

.

[IrishArmenian]

I am very uncomfortable with nothing but a hard copy, so I'll just buy Empire the normal, safer way.

[Ramses II CP]

My baseline assumption is no. I'm considering purchasing Kingdoms because CA has agreed to release a patch and because I feel comfortable going through with the known, unofficial procedure to fully remove the version of SecuRom it contains, but there is no way to predict what version will come with Empire or what new violations it will contain.

Let me be clear that I wouldn't steal it either. Refusing malware doesn't mean being a pirate.

[Barbarian]

It will be a hard decision. Undecided yet.

However, those, who have Kingdoms, already have the SecuRom on their machines. So, will buying empires change anything at all?

[Mailman653]

I'll still buy the game even if it came with a monkey and a crowbar.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You may be right Whacker (though my memory has holes concerning our chat about SecuROM), but isn't it interesting how almost none of what you say is in the OP?
All I was asking for was a decent reason to hate or avoid SecuROM, similar to the reasons you gave me to avoid StarForce, the OP certainly didn't provide any IMO. Now I think I'll be off to play some Kingdoms.

Well, sorry. Really, the SecuRom issue has been debated constantly. I gathered that most people would know what it was, which it seems that most people do.

[Bijo]

I wouldn't even buy it if it did NOT have copy protection, let alone if it WILL have. I would STEAL it..... from the store of course :P

[FactionHeir]

For those who haven't been following the SecuROM thread at the Citadel, these posts summarize it well in a nutshell:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=232

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=383

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=253

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=249

[Bravedude]

For those who haven't been following the SecuROM thread at the Citadel, these posts summarize it well in a nutshell:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=232

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=383

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=253

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=249

I was wondering why no one had posted links yet.

[Bellum]

No, but the Windows install folders are not my definition of malicious or invasive software.

Right you are. You have to get updates for the malicious software. Free of charge!


And no. If Empire has any DRM more complex than a cd check, I won't be getting it. I've gotten enough games with this crap on it, and while it doesn't cause me any problems particularly, I payed more for my computer than I payed for my truck. It's my property. Software shouldn't do things behind the users back.

Things didn't used to be like this.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

And no. If Empire has any DRM more complex than a cd check, I won't be getting it. I've gotten enough games with this crap on it, and while it doesn't cause me any problems particularly, I payed more for my computer than I payed for my truck. It's my property. Software shouldn't do things behind the users back.

Things didn't used to be like this.

As soon as home technology develops to the point where games like this can be made open source, like some games used to be, I'll have a lot more praise for the gaming community. The problem is that companies, as always, get fat and bloated, and feel they should have a monopoly. I don't want CA to become another EA.

[Bijo]

Alright alright, stop the bickering and let's get to the solution already! Fight it with fire. Buy the game and fight it with fire. It will help.

[hellenes]

Alright alright, stop the bickering and let's get to the solution already! Fight it with fire. Buy the game and fight it with fire. It will help.

I agree Ive bought Kingdoms and removed securom and still enjoy the game...

[Whacker]

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

[hellenes]

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

Its the same thing as with RomeTW...it didnt have DRM and we bought it...if Kingdoms has a DRM and I can still play it while removing teh DRM it means that its like it didnt have the DRM in the first place...
Now if Empire has a DRM that cannot be removed and played I wont buy it simple as that...

[Moros]

I spit on every software distribution company which uses such software. It's a disgrace and should be illegal. Protecting your CD's or Dvd's and your interests is okay, but customers should have the right to protect themselves just as much. Thank god we still have some indie games.

[rajpoot]

Wow, I never knew this thing was so big an issue until I peeped in the thread and then started reading as it was interesting..........

Yup its making my head spin, because I was totally oblivious of the fact that Kingdoms had installed anything hidden on my system.......not that I've had any problems so far, but I haven't found the files yet either, but if there is one thing I hate in this world, then it is things that have more power over my PC than myself
While I understand that the SecuRom whatever aren't really welcome, but they'd still deter a illegal copy won't they? I mean even if a guy uses a cracked game, he won't be able to copy it further isn't it?! I mean thats the whole point!!
Next, my dear sirs I live in India, there is a reason as to why I need to order my games over the internet and pay more in USD than I would have had to pay in my own currency, because the only PC game shop in my city, sells pirated games.......lord oh lord, the whole country runs on pirated games and movies.......and a select few people (considered a**h***s due it actually) buy the original DVDs/CDs of the games for ten times the price...........
Anyway, enough said.........
I'm uninstalling Kingdoms now, and I'm hurt that this is what CA gives me for my loyalty........far as ETW is concerned, I think I'll bycott it if it has the same rubbish alongwith it.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

While I understand that the SecuRom whatever aren't really welcome, but they'd still deter a illegal copy won't they? I mean even if a guy uses a cracked game, he won't be able to copy it further isn't it?! I mean thats the whole point!!

Nope. There are cracked copies of Kingdoms floating all over the internet. It might take the pirates an extra couple of minutes, but in the end, it only effects us.

[woad&fangs]

I'm uninstalling Kingdoms now, and I'm hurt that this is what CA gives me for my loyalty and honourableness........far as ETW is concerned, I think I'll bycott it if it has the same rubbish alongwith it.

iirc, the super secret securom files remain on your computer even if you uninstall kingdoms.

[Lord of the Isles]

I won't buy Empire:TW if it has any form of invasive DRM protection.

I bought Kingdoms and played it on an old machine that I've since trashed. It isn't on my new machine - like Silent Hunter III (Starforce copy protection) it sits on my shelf, games that I payed good money for that are now unusable. And now today, whilst browsing through SecuRom articles on the web, I find that Heroes of Might & Magic V, which I did install on my new machine IIRC, also has SecuRom protection.

I've been a PC gamer since the days of Civ I and F19 Stealth Fighter 20 years ago. I've just spent a lot of money building a gaming machine with a high spec graphics card so I could enjoy games like Total War, yet I find I cannot because of this <expletive deleted> DRM software. The next time I reinstall Windows HoMM V will join the others on the shelf and I may end up just playing Galactic Civilizations since Stardock now seem to be the only publisher I can trust not to infect my computer with hidden malware.

[hellenes]

I won't buy Empire:TW if it has any form of invasive DRM protection.

I bought Kingdoms and played it on an old machine that I've since trashed. It isn't on my new machine - like Silent Hunter III (Starforce copy protection) it sits on my shelf, games that I payed good money for that are now unusable. And now today, whilst browsing through SecuRom articles on the web, I find that Heroes of Might & Magic V, which I did install on my new machine IIRC, also has SecuRom protection.

I've been a PC gamer since the days of Civ I and F19 Stealth Fighter 20 years ago. I've just spent a lot of money building a gaming machine with a high spec graphics card so I could enjoy games like Total War, yet I find I cannot because of this <expletive deleted> DRM software. The next time I reinstall Windows HoMM V will join the others on the shelf and I may end up just playing Galactic Civilizations since Stardock now seem to be the only publisher I can trust not to infect my computer with hidden malware.

HOMMV doesnt have Securom DRM it has the older version...I dont know for latest patches cause my version is still the original...

[Spartan198]

No,plain and simple.

[Orda Khan]

No, you guys missed the point entirely. When you buy the game, you're directly supporting the DRM that we're discussing here. It doesn't matter if you remove it, or do whatever, you're supporting it period. If you want to make a difference, don't buy the game. Otherwise, you're just deluding yourselves into thinking that you're "sticking it to them" or "showing them".

Very true.
Regardless of anything they add, I want to see something worth buying in the first place. RTW, BI, M2TW were a waste of money imo. I decided not to buy Kingdoms and I will not be buying ETW

.......Orda

[Rick]

I will NOT be buying Empire if it has securom on it.

I've already made the mistake of buy M2tw Gold. I installed it thinking I didn't have to install the DirectX, but soon found out I had to. So installed DirectX from the CD separately.

After, I tried to start the game up and I got an error message saying the CD wasn't in the drive (of course it was) along with a securom message saying I was trying to play off a back up copy (#@!*&$). Now I'll have to uninstall everything and than re-install it. How much do you want to bet I won't be able to play it after that, because securom will say I violated its protection?

I am so pissed ! I can't continue, or they'll kick me off this forum for typing what I really think.

Rick

[Rick]

I agree Ive bought Kingdoms and removed securom and still enjoy the game...

How did you remove it?

Rick