gandalf the double agent

[Gregoshi]

Interesting premise nokhor.

A couple of counter-points:

1) Gandalf did cross the River Anduin from Minas Tirith to the Black Gate to fight in the final battle there.

2) The Ring Wraiths were crossing the river when they were unhorsed by the flood, regardless of whether it was natural or created by Elrond.

3) Helms Deep was a place of refuge for Rohan in the past, so going there wasn't out of the question. Besides, Sauruman defeated a large body of Rohirrim twice out in the open at the Fords of Isen - the first of which resulted in the death of Theoden's son. So, fighting Sauruman in the open wasn't going to work.

4) Regarding the ploy to get all his enemies on one place to defeat them in one battle, that doesn't work either. In the time around the whole Minas Tirith business, Sauron was fighting elsewhere too. He made three attacks on Lorien and was repelled all three times by Galadriel and the elves. There was also a major battle fought north in Dale. Sauron won this battle, killing King Brand and King Dain Ironfoot and besieging the surviving men and dwaves in Erebor. Sauron's forces were also defeated in Mirkwood by Thranduil (Legolas' father). In fact the second assault on Lorien and the battle in Mirkwood took place on the same day as the battle of Pelennor. See Appendix B, "The Tale of Years" in The Return of the King.

5) Boromir would have become a slave to the Ring had Gandalf chosen him to carry it. Just look what it did to him being on close proximity to it. Hobbits were the only people that seemed to show some manner of resistence to its seductive powers.

6) Gandalf had the elven ring Narya which would have been quite a feather in his cap just returning that to Sauron.

7) This is more speculation than the others above, but regarding the eagles, the Ring was forged in the Cracks of Doom which was inside Mt. Doom. Simply dropping the ring in crater at the top probably wouldn't have sufficed. Also, the eagles flying would have drawn the attention of Sauron and apart from the Nazgul, we know little of Sauron's air defenses, physically or magically. He had no known dragons or balrogs (assuming they could fly).

That's enough for now. Thanks for the though exercise nokhor.

[Husar]

Ahem.

[lars573]

^

Interesting premise nokhor.

A couple of counter-points:

1) Gandalf did cross the River Anduin from Minas Tirith to the Black Gate to fight in the final battle there.

2) The Ring Wraiths were crossing the river when they were unhorsed by the flood, regardless of whether it was natural or created by Elrond.

3) Helms Deep was a place of refuge for Rohan in the past, so going there wasn't out of the question. Besides, Sauruman defeated a large body of Rohirrim twice out in the open at the Fords of Isen - the first of which resulted in the death of Theoden's son. So, fighting Sauruman in the open wasn't going to work.

4) Regarding the ploy to get all his enemies on one place to defeat them in one battle, that doesn't work either. In the time around the whole Minas Tirith business, Sauron was fighting elsewhere too. He made three attacks on Lorien and was repelled all three times by Galadriel and the elves. There was also a major battle fought north in Dale. Sauron won this battle, killing King Brand and King Dain Ironfoot and besieging the surviving men and dwaves in Erebor. Sauron's forces were also defeated in Mirkwood by Thranduil (Legolas' father). In fact the second assault on Lorien and the battle in Mirkwood took place on the same day as the battle of Pelennor. See Appendix B, "The Tale of Years" in The Return of the King.

5) Boromir would have become a slave to the Ring had Gandalf chosen him to carry it. Just look what it did to him being on close proximity to it. Hobbits were the only people that seemed to show some manner of resistence to its seductive powers.

6) Gandalf had the elven ring Narya which would have been quite a feather in his cap just returning that to Sauron.

7) This is more speculation than the others above, but regarding the eagles, the Ring was forged in the Cracks of Doom which was inside Mt. Doom. Simply dropping the ring in crater at the top probably wouldn't have sufficed. Also, the eagles flying would have drawn the attention of Sauron and apart from the Nazgul, we know little of Sauron's air defenses, physically or magically. He had no known dragons or balrogs (assuming they could fly).

That's enough for now. Thanks for the though exercise nokhor.

Reading the books FTW! But on #6, that could simply have been Gandalfs ace in the hole. You know in case Sauron ever turned on him. The Macheavellian schemer that is nokhor's Gandalf would have an exit strategy.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Nokhor's right!!!1!!

Boromir just KNEW that Gandalf's plan was ludicrous! Unfortunately, he had Boromir killed in a trap before Boromir worked out that it was Gandalf all this time.

[woad&fangs]

[seireikhaan]

Nice thread.

[Decker]

Got a couple more of the infamous Boromir:

A Catapult??


An Imaginary...Phone??

[nokhor]

Peasent Phill you asked

It has already been pointed out that rivers aren't always such a problem for resurected beings like the ringwraights and alledgedly Gandalf. But how would you explain an irrational fear of open water and then crossing an Ocean at the end of the movie like Gandalf did.

the anwser to that is very simple my friend. gandalf obviously underwent counseling sometime clandestinely, during one of numerous trips when he was running around all over the place getting peoples and states involved in the big war.



Gregoshi, pal-y, here is my rebuttal to your counterpoints

1) gandalf did cross the river anduin, or at least that's what he wants us to think, but did we actually see it? i think not.

2) see my answer to the last point

3) see my answer to the last point

4) see my answer to the last point

5) gandalf wants you to think that boro.., bora... bore... what's his face would have succumbed to the ring but i think borumeer would have created a new era of peace and tranquility where everyone knew their place and there would be no troublemakers, is that so bad?

6) see my answer to the last point

7) last point. all this talk about dragons and the ring narnia, and fords of isen and kind dale is making my head hurt. i will inform you that all that stuff is just some prequel literature stuff written by some british guy as part of the expanded universe, but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

Interesting premise nokhor.

A couple of counter-points:

1) Gandalf did cross the River Anduin from Minas Tirith to the Black Gate to fight in the final battle there.

2) The Ring Wraiths were crossing the river when they were unhorsed by the flood, regardless of whether it was natural or created by Elrond.

3) Helms Deep was a place of refuge for Rohan in the past, so going there wasn't out of the question. Besides, Sauruman defeated a large body of Rohirrim twice out in the open at the Fords of Isen - the first of which resulted in the death of Theoden's son. So, fighting Sauruman in the open wasn't going to work.

4) Regarding the ploy to get all his enemies on one place to defeat them in one battle, that doesn't work either. In the time around the whole Minas Tirith business, Sauron was fighting elsewhere too. He made three attacks on Lorien and was repelled all three times by Galadriel and the elves. There was also a major battle fought north in Dale. Sauron won this battle, killing King Brand and King Dain Ironfoot and besieging the surviving men and dwaves in Erebor. Sauron's forces were also defeated in Mirkwood by Thranduil (Legolas' father). In fact the second assault on Lorien and the battle in Mirkwood took place on the same day as the battle of Pelennor. See Appendix B, "The Tale of Years" in The Return of the King.

5) Boromir would have become a slave to the Ring had Gandalf chosen him to carry it. Just look what it did to him being on close proximity to it. Hobbits were the only people that seemed to show some manner of resistence to its seductive powers.

6) Gandalf had the elven ring Narya which would have been quite a feather in his cap just returning that to Sauron.

7) This is more speculation than the others above, but regarding the eagles, the Ring was forged in the Cracks of Doom which was inside Mt. Doom. Simply dropping the ring in crater at the top probably wouldn't have sufficed. Also, the eagles flying would have drawn the attention of Sauron and apart from the Nazgul, we know little of Sauron's air defenses, physically or magically. He had no known dragons or balrogs (assuming they could fly).

That's enough for now. Thanks for the though exercise nokhor.

[sapi]

7) last point. all this talk about dragons and the ring narnia, and fords of isen and kind dale is making my head hurt. i will inform you that all that stuff is just some prequel literature stuff written by some british guy as part of the expanded universe, but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

[Gregoshi]

...but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

There was no canon in the movie...

[Paradox]

It's a shame Boromir died so quickly, had he lived, Osgiliath would have never fallen and there wouldn't be a siege of....that Gondor castle, however it's spelled.

[LittleGrizzly]

It's a shame Boromir died so quickly, had he lived, Osgiliath would have never fallen and there wouldn't be a siege of....that Gondor castle, however it's spelled.

Would he really have made that much of a difference at Osgiliath ?

thread

[drone]

Would he really have made that much of a difference at Osgiliath ?

thread

Faramir said that Boromir would have held Osgiliath, since he was a better captain of men.


Assuming we are using arguments from the books, not just the movie.



While we are at it, Boromir was not killed by the Uruk-hai arrows. There was a second shooter from behind the grassy knoll. I think he had a grey hat on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Papewaio]

While we are at it, Boromir was not killed by the Uruk-hai arrows. There was a second shooter from behind the grassy knoll. I think he had a grey hat on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gnoll's are from D&D which is a knock-off of Lord of the Rings. They (TSR/D&D) have already got in enough copyright problems with Hobbits er Halflings, no need to muddy the waters with Gnoll's. And as we all know from Red Dwarf Kennedy was the shooter behind the grassy knoll.

[nokhor]

There was no canon in the movie...

weren't there cannons when the bad guys fleet were trying to blockade the good guys, and the good guys were shooting that ion cannon to escape? wait, no, that was empire strikes back. i always get these two movies mixed up.