gandalf the double agent

[Decker]

Now finally after reading your post... I must say this:

"Wait What??

[ReiseReise]

Gollum is the sneaky little dude. Golem is a Jewish mythological creature, and apparently a pokemon creature or something

You have actually read the books and not just seen the movies, right?

[nokhor]

Peasent Phill you asked

It has already been pointed out that rivers aren't always such a problem for resurected beings like the ringwraights and alledgedly Gandalf. But how would you explain an irrational fear of open water and then crossing an Ocean at the end of the movie like Gandalf did.

the anwser to that is very simple my friend. gandalf obviously underwent counseling sometime clandestinely, during one of numerous trips when he was running around all over the place getting peoples and states involved in the big war.



Gregoshi, pal-y, here is my rebuttal to your counterpoints

1) gandalf did cross the river anduin, or at least that's what he wants us to think, but did we actually see it? i think not.

2) see my answer to the last point

3) see my answer to the last point

4) see my answer to the last point

5) gandalf wants you to think that boro.., bora... bore... what's his face would have succumbed to the ring but i think borumeer would have created a new era of peace and tranquility where everyone knew their place and there would be no troublemakers, is that so bad?

6) see my answer to the last point

7) last point. all this talk about dragons and the ring narnia, and fords of isen and kind dale is making my head hurt. i will inform you that all that stuff is just some prequel literature stuff written by some british guy as part of the expanded universe, but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

Interesting premise nokhor.

A couple of counter-points:

1) Gandalf did cross the River Anduin from Minas Tirith to the Black Gate to fight in the final battle there.

2) The Ring Wraiths were crossing the river when they were unhorsed by the flood, regardless of whether it was natural or created by Elrond.

3) Helms Deep was a place of refuge for Rohan in the past, so going there wasn't out of the question. Besides, Sauruman defeated a large body of Rohirrim twice out in the open at the Fords of Isen - the first of which resulted in the death of Theoden's son. So, fighting Sauruman in the open wasn't going to work.

4) Regarding the ploy to get all his enemies on one place to defeat them in one battle, that doesn't work either. In the time around the whole Minas Tirith business, Sauron was fighting elsewhere too. He made three attacks on Lorien and was repelled all three times by Galadriel and the elves. There was also a major battle fought north in Dale. Sauron won this battle, killing King Brand and King Dain Ironfoot and besieging the surviving men and dwaves in Erebor. Sauron's forces were also defeated in Mirkwood by Thranduil (Legolas' father). In fact the second assault on Lorien and the battle in Mirkwood took place on the same day as the battle of Pelennor. See Appendix B, "The Tale of Years" in The Return of the King.

5) Boromir would have become a slave to the Ring had Gandalf chosen him to carry it. Just look what it did to him being on close proximity to it. Hobbits were the only people that seemed to show some manner of resistence to its seductive powers.

6) Gandalf had the elven ring Narya which would have been quite a feather in his cap just returning that to Sauron.

7) This is more speculation than the others above, but regarding the eagles, the Ring was forged in the Cracks of Doom which was inside Mt. Doom. Simply dropping the ring in crater at the top probably wouldn't have sufficed. Also, the eagles flying would have drawn the attention of Sauron and apart from the Nazgul, we know little of Sauron's air defenses, physically or magically. He had no known dragons or balrogs (assuming they could fly).

That's enough for now. Thanks for the though exercise nokhor.

[sapi]

7) last point. all this talk about dragons and the ring narnia, and fords of isen and kind dale is making my head hurt. i will inform you that all that stuff is just some prequel literature stuff written by some british guy as part of the expanded universe, but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

[Gregoshi]

...but if you don't see it in the movie by the new zealand guy, then it isn't canon and just didn't really happen.

There was no canon in the movie...

[Paradox]

It's a shame Boromir died so quickly, had he lived, Osgiliath would have never fallen and there wouldn't be a siege of....that Gondor castle, however it's spelled.

[LittleGrizzly]

It's a shame Boromir died so quickly, had he lived, Osgiliath would have never fallen and there wouldn't be a siege of....that Gondor castle, however it's spelled.

Would he really have made that much of a difference at Osgiliath ?

thread

[drone]

Would he really have made that much of a difference at Osgiliath ?

thread

Faramir said that Boromir would have held Osgiliath, since he was a better captain of men.


Assuming we are using arguments from the books, not just the movie.



While we are at it, Boromir was not killed by the Uruk-hai arrows. There was a second shooter from behind the grassy knoll. I think he had a grey hat on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[nokhor]

There was no canon in the movie...

weren't there cannons when the bad guys fleet were trying to blockade the good guys, and the good guys were shooting that ion cannon to escape? wait, no, that was empire strikes back. i always get these two movies mixed up.

[Papewaio]

While we are at it, Boromir was not killed by the Uruk-hai arrows. There was a second shooter from behind the grassy knoll. I think he had a grey hat on.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Gnoll's are from D&D which is a knock-off of Lord of the Rings. They (TSR/D&D) have already got in enough copyright problems with Hobbits er Halflings, no need to muddy the waters with Gnoll's. And as we all know from Red Dwarf Kennedy was the shooter behind the grassy knoll.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

They don't make Fell Beasts like they used to...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll finish it off with one of my personal favourites...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Paradox]

[img=https://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9237/326ce83cwa4.th.jpg]

!?

Isn't that the horse Gandalf rode on his way to Gondor? He uses it to scare halflings!

[caravel]

I knew it...

[Gregoshi]

Welcome to the Crappy Photoshop Hour...

[Paradox]

That ain't photoshop, Boromir took it himself before he could return it to the fellowship but he was killed by the gray-hatted double agent!

[Gregoshi]

This Boromir love-fest got me thinking about how Jackson really screwed him over in the movies. On film, Boromir is taken down with a mere three arrows. In the book, Boromir is described as being pierced by "many" arrows. I wonder why the difference. Is "many arrows" too unrealistic in a set of movies in which Legolas skateboards down a staircase on shield or kills on oliphant single-handedly then gracefully slides down its trunk (standing up!) as the beast dies?

I'm makiing up a t-shirt to wear: "Boromir got the shaft...3 of them!"

[nokhor]

Gnoll's are from D&D which is a knock-off of Lord of the Rings. They (TSR/D&D) have already got in enough copyright problems with Hobbits er Halflings, no need to muddy the waters with Gnoll's. And as we all know from Red Dwarf Kennedy was the shooter behind the grassy knoll.

funny thing that you mentioned The Usual Suspects. now i know that you are circuitous but you're trying to be circumlocutory, so if i understand you correctly then gandalf is kaiser soze? that makes complete sense now, yes?