Unlimited Golden Horde

[Cmdrnarrain]

I'm playing XL with the Eras expansion. I really do not remember a time when I have not crushed the horde with a relatively small army of 1,500 men (mostly bows and spears) on the defensive as there is little point in attacking the horde unless you like chasing horse archers around the map.

I was hoping there was a mod which represented the horde arriving in waves. That way they actually have a chance of taking the world instead of being bogged down before Hungry. I think the horde appearing in waves would be really scary especially if you play the Turks or Cumens.

[drone]

My understanding is that they tend to run out of money after a while, that's why they bog down. Maybe mod down their unit cost and upkeep figures, to keep them viable. Not a modder myself, but that shouldn't be too difficult to do.

Does anyone know the building requisites for Golden Horde units? Maybe lower them as well.

[caravel]

I believe their recruitment requirements are quite low, but reducing the support costs would be the thing to do if you want a juggernaut horde.

As to making them appear in waves, that can't be done. The emerging factions such as the Burgundians, Swiss and GH cannot be modded to appear at different dates. Nor can you mod it so that extra troops arrive every few years (as in the MI campaign for STW). Unfortunately this is all hardcoded.

Apart from support costs you can also improve the Horde by modding out the infantry element, namely the Golden Horde Warriors. Masses of these appearing in battle is not very realistic as historically the Mongols wouldn't have fought like this and they are very easy for the player to simply run down. Another fix is to improve the standards of some of the starting mongol generals and khans, as they are quite weak, this should pretty much do the trick. If you wanted to go further you could tinker with the MHC/MHA's stats but this needs to be done with caution to avoid overpowering them.

[drone]

I believe their recruitment requirements are quite low, but reducing the support costs would be the thing to do if you want a juggernaut horde.

Upkeep costs are pretty low already, if I'm not mistaken. The Frog's unit guide has 22 for GH Warriors, 50 for Heavy Cav, and 30 for Horse Archers. The recruitment costs are pretty high though (300, 525, 575, respectively), I wonder if they are unable to train new units after a while due to these costs. Or building requirements limit them when they sack provinces, but I don't have a clue about what they are.

I assume it's also possible to mod the Horde's starting treasury. Maybe give them a few million for grins (or use the -ian/.deadringer. combo).

[Ironsword]

Well, you're all too brutal players for me.

I started as the Turkish the other day in high. I took one meagre province from some rebels, repelled an Italian and a HRE crusade, then got absolutely spanked by the GH.

Is it just me or do they almost never break in combat? I think they're powerful enough if you're starting out in that corner.

[nara shikamaru]

Ah the GH such fond memories. I've dealt with them as the Almo's, Eggy's, Russian's, French, and the Volga Bulgars, I think that's all of them. And I have to say, it was not fun. I remember on some of the aforementioned campaigns having only the governor left in Khazar, no more than 100 men, and getting about 13-18k of GH forces. Others I had prepared, maybe 7-10k of my own in Khazar, and only 6K of GH. Now I thought there were more else where. Nope only in Khazar. So from my experience it seems random the amount of men they get.

Also to note, the Volga Bulgarian campaign was the most recent one I did where I had to deal with the horde, and I must say, it was very fun. I didn't hold Khazar at the time, but did have to deal with a GH attack pretty much every turn for well over a decade. Usually out numbered about 1.5-2 of them to 1 of me, and still won about 90% of the battles. What I especially loved about that campaign was the GH Khan Ogadai III, I think, getting squished by a rock, from his own catapult, wish I took a pic of that.

So from what I learned, the amount of troops the GH get seems randomized, as I've seen vast 20+K forces, to only about 6K. And that the number of troops where they land, isn't always directly affected by how much is in the province to begin with, but what do I know.

Now if you excuse me, I hear my Berber camels calling for me to kill more infidels.

[Heidrek]

The Horde are difficult to fight due to their excellent mobility. All those arrows are such a massive irritation. I think the best tactic I found was fighting them on the steppes. A couple of units of Pavise Arbalesters with armour upgrades in loose formation at the tree line with a bunch of halbs and heavy infantry in the trees behind then and a couple of cavalry units hidden off to the side.

In my current High age XL campaign, the Golden Horde are the pre eminent power other than myself. they've just broken the stalemate by attacking one of my provinces and it's time to face off against them. This is going to get very nasty very soon.

Scots V Golden Horde. I'll keep you advised of the outcome. So far I've scapled the Castile-Leonese and humbled the French, so it's time for the two big boys to fight it out.

[caravel]

Upkeep costs are pretty low already, if I'm not mistaken. The Frog's unit guide has 22 for GH Warriors, 50 for Heavy Cav, and 30 for Horse Archers. The recruitment costs are pretty high though (300, 525, 575, respectively), I wonder if they are unable to train new units after a while due to these costs. Or building requirements limit them when they sack provinces, but I don't have a clue about what they are.

I assume it's also possible to mod the Horde's starting treasury. Maybe give them a few million for grins (or use the -ian/.deadringer. combo).

Indeed though the recruitment cost is a one off payment whereas support costs are per annum.

If you were to reduce the recruitment costs the Horde would quickly spam a few thousand more troops then founder when trying to pay all of the support. It's better to reduce their support costs even more than they are in vanilla as this will help to stop them going into the red (they raze everything anyway, aren't exactly the greatest traders and so don't derive much income from the land or sea) and historically the Horde would have been hardened warriors that would have mainly supported themselves through pillaging. The way to do this IMHO is to work on the support costs. It is these that paralyze the Horde right from the start.

I've never tried modding their starting treasury, that would also be very worthwhile if it works for emerging factions.

Well, you're all too brutal players for me.

I started as the Turkish the other day in high. I took one meagre province from some rebels, repelled an Italian and a HRE crusade, then got absolutely spanked by the GH.

Is it just me or do they almost never break in combat? I think they're powerful enough if you're starting out in that corner.

Quite a difficult campaign. You have to take Georgia early on and fortify it as best as you can with alot of Saracen infantry, Ghazis, Futuwwa and Armenian Heavy cavalry. Janissaries would be great but you'll probably struggle to tech up to them in only 26 years. Then fight the hill defenses to keep the Horde out of there. This is pretty much one battle after another so be prepared for some epic four or five hour defensive engagements.

Also if you're unlucky enough to have the Horde pop up in Armenia then you must at least do very well in the first battle if you want to hold on to your heartlands. Fail to win and be prepared to go under siege in some of your neighbouring provinces. Georgia must hold to prevent the Horde in Armenia from being relieved by those in Khazar.

[Cmdrnarrain]

I tried something different by building a fortress in Khazam and garrisoned it with an 8 Star Hvy Cumen Calvary General and 3 baskhots (spearmen/javlinmen) for about 220 men. I also put defensive armies of about 1,500 troops (mostly archers and baskhots) in the three provinces surrounding it.

About 16,000 Mongels showed up, 13,000 assaulted the fortress and 3,000 attacked the Volga. The 3,000 were repulsed for about 150 Cumens for 2,000 Mongels. The 13,000 attacked the fortress and left about 8,000 dead around the walls before time ran out. (hint: the AI does not sweep the whole ring so if you hide 1 fella in the back it will keep all of the towers firing in each ring).

The next turn 6,000 neutral mongels (the khan, his brothers and little dog all died in the previous battles) gave the fortress another try and almost succeeded in taking it, but again ran out of time again with 5,800 dead. I was down to about 80 men but all 4 units were still around.

The final turn I sweep the 200 dregs back into the hinterlands.

Normally, I just defend Georgia to protect the Crusade provinces for about the same results but as the Cumens they showed up on my backdoor. I just don't think the Mongels are tough enough to be a real threat.

Maybe random turn and location entry would help too instead of just larger numbers. Hehe, 18,000 Mongels showing up in Scotland around 1100 would cause me to fill my draws.

[Innocentius]

It's always fun to mess with the Mongol invasion. A good one is cheating and teching up Khazar to a master armourer and the highest level of Pagan Shrine as the Cumans, pumping Khazar full with spearmen and slav warriors and thereafter retreating to Levidia and Crimea (reachable only across a river). This way, I've triggered an invasion of some 15,000 - 20,000+ Mongols with gold armour and +4 morale... in High. Ah, the amuses of cheating.