Retrained units the same, FAQ unclear ...

[timoteo]

I've always wondered if upon retraining units with experience and/or upgraded weapons meant that your ranks were diluted or does it "top them off" with like units. The answer to this question in the FAQ seems to contradict itself:

"Q: When I retrain my a depleted unit, are the replacements of the same experience as the unit?

A: Yes. That quirk of RTW is unchanged (one might imagine replacements have zero experience.)"


It says "YES" but then goes on to say "replacements have zero experience". Hurh?

Also, on another note ... it's annoying not knowing which units are currently being retrained. Is there a mod (or is it at least on a patch wishlist) to have it indicated which units are currently in the retraining que?

Thanks.

-Tim

[Guru]

The replacements have the same experience as the unit, like the FAQ says. It doesn't say that replacements have zero experience, it says one might think so (because it would be logical). If you have a badly depleted high experience unit and then retrain it you'll have a full strenght unit with the same experiance.
- Guru

[FactionHeir]

Also, on another note ... it's annoying not knowing which units are currently being retrained. Is there a mod (or is it at least on a patch wishlist) to have it indicated which units are currently in the retraining que?

Guru has already answered your first question correctly. The answer to your second question is that units currently undergoing retraining have their number of men also listed in the training queue, contrary to the newly trained ones which do not display a number.

[timoteo]

The replacements have the same experience as the unit, like the FAQ says. It doesn't say that replacements have zero experience, it says one might think so (because it would be logical). If you have a badly depleted high experience unit and then retrain it you'll have a full strenght unit with the same experiance.
- Guru

Thanks for clearing it up for me Guru. I guess there could be two schools of thought on what is "logical" in this instance. To me it would be illogical to not have them retrained at the experience, otherwise retraining (unless the game offered some type of major cost offset) would be useless. So in that way of thinking, the wording "quirk remains" made me think that RTW did not allow for like experience. (It's been a while since I played RTW.)


Thanks again.

[timoteo]

Also, I forgot to add that one might think of this in a practical sense (real-world sense) that the remaining troops might add some insight to the training of the replacement, thus making them near-equals of the originals. I know, a BIT of a stretch, but it works for me. :)

[timoteo]

Guru has already answered your first question correctly. The answer to your second question is that units currently undergoing retraining have their number of men also listed in the training queue, contrary to the newly trained ones which do not display a number.

Actually, sorry, I should have been more clear. What I want is to be able to see what units are retraining in the "main screen" (not the pop-up city window with the recruitment, building, etc. tabs). There is no indication on the main screen (lower panel) which are being retrained. I sometimes accidentally move out those that are currently being retrained (upgraded usually).

Which also reminds me, equally annoying is that in the retraining tab the units do not reflect what their current experience, armor, etc. is (it is left blank) and you constantly have to compare the number left to that in the main window to see which units you are working with ... and sometimes you have equal amounts of depleted units for the same type, adding to the confusion.

-Tim

[Guru]

I guess there could be two schools of thought on what is "logical" in this instance. To me it would be illogical to not have them retrained at the experience, otherwise retraining (unless the game offered some type of major cost offset) would be useless.

I see your point. But think of a battle-hardened veteran unit which takes heavy beating and suffers big losses. The surviving troops are still most experienced. The newly recruited replacements could possibly not have the same experience, they've never fought a battle. The training would not be equal to battle experience. Of course the new troops would benefit from having rough veterans in the unit.
Perhaps it would be nice if the player could choose if he wants to use green troops as cheap replacements or have them trained more excessively, with a much greater cost and time naturally. Green troops would be cheap but they'd lower the overall experience of the unit, well trained men would be expensive but closer to the experience of the veterans. Naturally the veterans would participate in training the replacement troops. My little theory.

- Guru

[predaturd]

doesnt retraining allow you to retrain multiple units in one turn? if it does then you can make more troops retraining than just simply training some more :)

[Guru]

doesnt retraining allow you to retrain multiple units in one turn? if it does then you can make more troops retraining than just simply training some more :)

Units being retrained take one slot each as do units being recruited. So you'd get more troops by recruiting new units rather than retraining old ones.

[Iavorios]

In RTW you could actually recruit one brand new unit, plus retrain another eight (even if they have only one man in them) for one turn. Unleased as long as you have the money and the population for that. If ever tried to retrain an army of 19 fully depleted units, you'll know what provlem is to find about 1500man in freshly exterminated city. In MTW 2 the population is not a problem, but you can recruit or retrain 3 units at max.

[WhiskeyGhost]

IIRC the only unit that gets 0 exp replacements, is the type that auto-retrain (General's Bodyguard) over time. Thats probably due to the fact if you have 1 bodyguard with 3 gold chevrons, its not very fair for you to regenerate more 3 gold chevron guards for free every turn (not to mention that unit would be more of an assault unit then a protection unit).

[ReiseReise]

IIRC the only unit that gets 0 exp replacements, is the type that auto-retrain (General's Bodyguard) over time. Thats probably due to the fact if you have 1 bodyguard with 3 gold chevrons, its not very fair for you to regenerate more 3 gold chevron guards for free every turn (not to mention that unit would be more of an assault unit then a protection unit).

When they get 300 kills per battle does it matter?

[Old Geezer]

It seems to me that it costs slightly less per man to replace than to recruit from scratch.

[Procrustes]

Just my opinion, but I tend to feel that the retraining bonus that RTW and MTW2 give you are unfair - I'd rather see the new recruits be green. In the old MTW I would take my remnants and combine them to get full, experienced units - retraining a handful of soldiers - even mercs - and then getting a full-valored unit for a couple of extra bucks seems gamey.

[crpcarrot]

in the real world as far i know from real life accounts it was always the new recruits who alwasy died first.

although joining a highly trained unit would probably increase chance of survival more than a 100% green unit no amount of training would have equaled actual battle exp.

I too prefer the orignal MTW's system where my high exp units were nurtured and used for specific tasks. now i seem to have too many gold chevs specially archers.

there no satisfaction in destroying an enemies unit thats carrying about a 100 flags cos the one guy that got away is just going to comeback with another 59(or whatever it takes to fill up the unit) men who seemed to have gained years of battle exp just by talking to him.

alternatively the gurus suggestion seems good.

if we are talking about being realistic shouldnt exp decrease over time in peacetime to reflect soldieres dying and just plain being out of combat for too long?

[Flavius Merobaudes]

In my last RTW:BI campaign as the Sassanids, I had 4 Clibinarii with one gold chevron each that were really depleted (less than quarter strength). After retraining, they had only 3 bronze chevrons... If recruits were trained at the units average, this should not happen. I remember similar things in MTW2. I guess recruits are normally fairly well trained, but if a unit is less than half strength, its quality decreases when being retrained.
It seems very logical to me: If you mix some recruits in a veteran unit, they will take an example of the veterans and behave the same, act the same in combat... If you have a green unit with only a few veterans in it, they won't have enough influence and they cannot look after all of them.

[_Tristan_]

In my last RTW:BI campaign as the Sassanids, I had 4 Clibinarii with one gold chevron each that were really depleted (less than quarter strength). After retraining, they had only 3 bronze chevrons... If recruits were trained at the units average, this should not happen. I remember similar things in MTW2. I guess recruits are normally fairly well trained, but if a unit is less than half strength, its quality decreases when being retrained.
It seems very logical to me: If you mix some recruits in a veteran unit, they will take an example of the veterans and behave the same, act the same in combat... If you have a green unit with only a few veterans in it, they won't have enough influence and they cannot look after all of them.

Not at all, even an almost completely depleted unit (I had once a 3 gold Mailed Knight with only 4 knights left) when retrained in M2TW, the unit will keep its former experience, here the three gold chevrons...

[econ21]

In my last RTW:BI campaign as the Sassanids, I had 4 Clibinarii with one gold chevron each that were really depleted (less than quarter strength). After retraining, they had only 3 bronze chevrons...

Interesting - I wonder if RTW:BI had changed in that respect from RTW? Because I am pretty sure RTW was like M2TW in allowing retraining to maintain unit experience. That was why we adopted a house rule against retraining depleted units in RTW PBMs (the stat bonuses from high XP being large).

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Not at all, even an almost completely depleted unit (I had once a 3 gold Mailed Knight with only 4 knights left) when retrained in M2TW, the unit will keep its former experience, here the three gold chevrons...

That's what I thought for a long time as well. It doesn't matter whether I play RTW or MTW2, in most cases the unit's experience stays high, but on rare occasions that I have seen in both games the unit loses some experience when being retrained. I don't understand why this happens or what it depends on. Bug? I'd like it to work either way, recruits green or "veteran recruits", but it seems to be a mixture of both. Thus, I'm never sure whether to merge or to retrain.

[_Tristan_]

Never saw it happen... either in RTW or M2TW... One of the reason I'm sure to check off the "auto-merge units" option...

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I just had a look in the MTW2 manual and it says: "Due to still unexperienced recruits, the experience of the retrained depleted unit may decrease." (own translation from german manual)
Now, whatever that "may" means, I can only guess.

Edit: And why is that "mexica sunrise" in my headline?

[crpcarrot]

when 2 units are MERGED the exp is avaraged out

but when they are RETRAINED they retain exp. even if it is the last man of that unit. ive retrained many units like this and they never have lost any exp.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

when 2 units are MERGED the exp is avaraged out

but when they are RETRAINED they retain exp. even if it is the last man of that unit. ive retrained many units like this and they never have lost any exp.

Yes, I know. But at least in my games this sometimes is not the case. I'll try to reconstruct such a situation and post some screens when I got time...
And to top it all off: Sometimes when a unit gets depleted during battle, it gains one more chevron the next turn. Anybody seen that?

[_Tristan_]

And to top it all off: Sometimes when a unit gets depleted during battle, it gains one more chevron the next turn. Anybody seen that?

Yep... I've noticed that to have happened sometimes... Don't know where it comes from...

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Just comes to my mind that I retrained them in a town with a Mithras temple which gives recruits an experience bonus. Perhaps there's some error in how the game handles that. Just a bug like when you have a castle with swordsmiths' guild and tournament, and you have to retrain your knights twice to get the experience boni of both.

[Old Geezer]

I very often save the game before manually merging units to get the best experience gain for them. Sometimes merging results in both units which had no experience gaining a first chevron. I rationalize this by choosing to believe that my leaders have skillfully put experienced cadre in each unit. By turn 60 I usually have several gold chevroned spear militia (even with non Italian factions).

[Ferret]

Edit: And why is that "mexica sunrise" in my headline?

that's the bottom of Tristan's sig, it's very long

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Finally, I have been able to take some screenshots of units being retrained and losing experience in the process. This is the first time I'm posting images, so I hope this works...



Here I've taken the only Alemanni settlement and my levy spearmen (1 silver chevron) need retraining. I also demolished the holy grove of Frigg that I conquered and build a shrine of Woden ( +1 recruits exp).



One turn later, the units are retrained. Notice how two of the levy spearmen lost one exp?

Either this happens when a unit is somewhat depleted or it has to do with structures giving a "recruits experience bonus". In the latter case one might consider it being a bug.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

Is this topic really so annoying?

[locked_thread]

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