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  1. #1
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default On pendulums and society

    Questions:

    You have a pendulum swinging from side to side. It is very heavy, and you along with millions of other people are allowed to throw objects at each of the sides of the pendulum to slow it down or accelerate it.

    1. If you can see the pendulum at all times, and get the following options on what to do when the pendulum is about to pass the middle position, which should you pick?
    a. give it a push in the direction it is already moving
    b. don't touch it at all
    c. give it a push in the opposite direction of what it is moving in

    2. If you saw the pendulum a while ago, but then had to close your eyes, and now without opening them again have to make the same decision as that above, which would you choose?
    a. give it a push in the direction that it was moving when you closed your eyes
    b. don't touch it at all, leaving it to those who can see the position and velocity of the pendulum, or leaving it to friction to slow it down
    c. give it a push in the opposite direction of what it was moving when you closed your eyes

    3. If the time it takes the pendulum to swings from one end to the other is around one to two lifetimes, and you see the pendulum when you're young but then stop looking at it, what answer would you give to question 1 when you reach the age of 50?
    a. give it a push in the direction that it was moving when you were young
    b. don't touch it at all, leaving it to those who can see the position and velocity of the pendulum, or leaving it to friction to slow it down
    c. give it a push in the opposite direction of what it was moving when you were young

    I won't discuss how I think this applies to politics, I merely wish to see if these questions are perceived as easy in this isolated form, to see if it is the recognition of this pattern, or the reasoning about this isolated problem, that often makes people make what to me seems like odd decisions in such questions.

    The right answers are:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    1 c
    2 if you were alone, it's not possible to tell, but probabilistically, b is the best option most likely to be best in most cases
    3 c
    A better option not available above is of course to try and look at the pendulum again under 2 and 3, but that wasn't part of the question.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-14-2008 at 17:57.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    I'm pretty sure the answer to 1 is "grab the pendulum so that it stops instantly at the middle".

  3. #3
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Edit: It's an incredibly heavy pendulum, you don't have that option. I edited the post above so it's more clear now.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-14-2008 at 17:59.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Then your experiment can't be compared to society.

  5. #5
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    If you could just grab the pendulum and stop it, it would be the equivalent to you being a dictator with 100% unlimited power, and that wouldn't be comparable to society. Can you please explain what you think makes it so the current version can't be compared to society?
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  6. #6
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    well i pretty much agree with your answers (basically what i picked before reading your spoiler)

    but if the pendulum is womens rights i believe it hasn't got to the middle yet, and it is losing more and more momentum as it gets closer to the centre. To start with theres was alot of call for the pendulum to move to the centre even men thought it should, then women had the vote, laws were applied to equal the sexes, sexual discrimination in workplace ect.

    and so the pendulum has got to where it is today where the equality is almost there, there is still a difference in pay and amount of women in boardrooms but i think exact equality on these would probably mean women are being encouraged ahead of men whereas there should be slight differences based on the types of jobs men and women choose.

    But as the pendulum reaches the centre the power behind it is rapidly vanishing.. what women would throw themself under a horse for womens rights today ? (in a free country) I don't even think most women themselves want more than men just equality....
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  7. #7

    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodion Romanovich
    If you could just grab the pendulum and stop it, it would be the equivalent to you being a dictator with 100% unlimited power, and that wouldn't be comparable to society. Can you please explain what you think makes it so the current version can't be compared to society?
    The problem with your pendulum analogy is that pendulums have momentum that can only be stopped by pushing in the opposite direction. Whereas a societal movement stops instantly when people stop pushing it. I assume you are talking about feminism, remember the goal of feminism is equality. When we reach that point the movement will be over, unlike a pendulum which will keep swinging.

  8. #8
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    What are the perceived affects of the pendulum's movement?
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    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Quote Originally Posted by drone
    What are the perceived affects of the pendulum's movement?
    Just that some people get to suffer much when the pendulum goes far from the middle, it can be different people at each endpoint the pendulum goes to, or the same in both cases. Some of the people who along with you can give the pendulum a push belong to either of those groups that suffer at the endpoints.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-14-2008 at 18:19.
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    Senior Member Senior Member Duke John's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    I'm not going anywhere near touching the pendulum if millions of other people are allowed to throw objects at it at the same time!

  11. #11
    Moderator Moderator Gregoshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    ...AND you don't know where it's been (if you just opened your eyes) DJ.
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  12. #12
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Do I understand some of you correctly when it feels like some of you make the fallacy "average women get a slightly worse situation than average men in some aspects in some countries, therefore no individual male can have a worse situation than a woman". If you didn't notice it yet, it is indeed a fallacy. What's worse is that I often find there's a taboo against saying that any individual man would be in an oppressed situation, especially if the oppressor happens to be a woman.

    When people start treating people as "part of a group" and based on the averages within that group, rather than as individuals, then society becomes a dangerous place and it doesn't take long before extremism arises. Especially when freedom of speech is infringed by the strongest form of censorship of them all: uncontrolled mass-hysteric rage from the masses putting a taboo on making certain statements.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-15-2008 at 16:35.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Do I understand some of you correctly when it feels like some of you make the fallacy "average women get a slightly worse situation than average men in some aspects in some countries, therefore no individual male can have a worse situation than a woman". If you didn't notice it yet, it is indeed a fallacy. What's worse is that I often find there's a taboo against saying that any individual man would be in an oppressed situation, especially if the oppressor happens to be a woman.
    In the OP you are comparing society to a pendulum, no mention of individuals.

    Trucker: Get the license, and you're done. No education required at all, and 0 responsibility.

    Yearly pay: from 300 000 NOK and up

    Now, how is that fair?
    There's no inherent reason education should make you paid more. And driving a truck comes with a lot of risk and is frankly a pretty crappy job. There are lots of "no education required" jobs that pay more than higher education jobs. I don't believe there is an actual wage gap--studies that account for all the factors show a very slight difference. Individual cases of misogyny aside.

    Some studies have shown in the past that as previously male only jobs become open to women salaries decrease, however that's just the effect of a larger pool of applicants driving salaries down.

  14. #14
    Thread killer Member Rodion Romanovich's Avatar
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    Default Re: On pendulums and society

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
    In the OP you are comparing society to a pendulum, no mention of individuals.
    I seem to recall mentioning there were millions of individuals, but please do keep denying inconvenient truths.
    Last edited by Rodion Romanovich; 02-15-2008 at 16:48.
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