Imperial Diet

[Ituralde]

Duke Leopolds smile does not falter at the outburst of Otto von Kassel, but he can hardly maintain it throughout the length of Maximilan Mandorf's speech.

Very well then, I will rephrase Edict 3.7 to suit von Kassels wishes. Surely our next Chancellor can find another man that won't shirk at the prospect of combat.

While we're discussing other Edicts I can not agree with Edict 1.11. I see no reason why Austrian money should be wasted into some pity fleets as long as our holdings remain completely landlocked.

Austrian merchants have informed me that the profits we receive from our Silver mines surrounding Vienna could be greatly increased if we were to set some of our merchants on trading these ressources. They tell me that the initial investment of recruiting those men will break even around the end of the next Chancellors turn and will then start to generate profit.

I propose Edict 3.14:
Two merchants are to be trained in Vienna and set to trading the two Silver mines in the countryside surrounding Vienna.


With those formalities out of the way, I think it's time to move on to more pressing matters, concerning the warmongers amongst us. His gaze travels to Mandorf.

Your personal sentiments for Pope Gregory aside, I think your plans lack a certain element of foresight. Perhaps your rage against god's represantative on earth has blinded you to the possibilities the future has to offer. Surely if all went as you described the future would look most prosperous for us and the Reich. However your plans contain so many possibilities for faliure that I don't even know where to start.

First you expect the Pope to call some sort of crusade or another against the infidels? Then you propose that we stir the righteous zeal of our peasantry and nobles to have them embark with us on this noblest of endeavours just to lie every one of them in the face. For instead of utilizing their zeal against the heathens that trouble Jerusalem itself, you want them to fight against their fellow Christians? Have you no honour left in your soul, has your hatred for Pope Gregory withered all of it away?
Even if enough corrupted souls could be found to support your endeavour against Rome, don't you think the French, the English and even the Milanese will have stirred up their populace to follow Pope Gregory's call. Do you think those armies would stand idly by while you attack the city of Rome itself?
Even our closest allies will consider breaking our bonds, because once we're excommunicated our word will weigh less than a feather within Christian Europe. Do not discard the Venetians or Poles so lightly once Gregory has given them an opportunity to fight against infidels, not somewhere far away, but right at their doorstep. The same goes for the other countries whose power on the field you discarded so lightly.
Then you intend to slay Pope Gregory on the field of battle and take the city from his successor, who will then thankfully accept our hereditary lands. Do you really think he would be gullible enough to accept any land we offer him? The Milanese, the French, the Hungarians, they will topple over themselves in trying to be the first to give the Pope a new home from where he can continue his war against our Reich. What do we do then, my dear Mandorf?

What if every nation of Europe turns against us and the Pope is amongst them supporting their cause, while you have just lied to your Subordinates and thrown away their souls to purgery or worse?
Your revenge will be a short one, while all we have worked for so hard will be torn asunder by our enemies.
Your plan, and any plan that let's us suffer excommunication and even tries to attack Rome itself, is pure and outright folly! Every man with a sane mind should be able to see this!

I once again urge every Elector to support me in Edict 3.6 to avoid that the vainity and hatred of a few men, destroy what so many of us have worked so hard for during the last years!

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia ask for permission to speak after listening carefully what the others have sayed.

"Kaiser, fellow Electors. Now that war is upon us we should keep a clear head and keep ourselves concentrated on our main goal. That is in my wiew, to defeat the enemy, so there can be peace again.
I have listened your words and some sound very disturbing to me. Challenge Pope? Take Rome? How long is from the last time these kind of thoughts were flying around in the Diet? How long is since our Empire nearly collapsed becouse of the strugle between Kaiser and Pope? Do we want to take the same path again, just when we are just about getting back on our two feet after the last strugle. I hope not.
The fact is that the Milanese have offended us by attacking our castle at Bern. This gives us legimite reason to end the rebellious existence of Milan. So i propose following edicts:

Edict 3.15 : Taking the city of Milan,Taking the city of Genoa and taking the city of Dijon.

I suggest attack with three forces. One against Dijon,lead by our Prinz Henry with our Swabians,possibly strengthened with mercenaries. Second against Milan lead by Otto Von Kassel,using troops from Innsbruck. Third against Genoa,lead by Kaiser with our Italian troops.

Edict 3.16 : Incase papal bulla is ordered to stop the attacks.We will stop all attacks against Milanese until the bulla expires.

I think it would be foolish to go now against the Pope and in order to create better relations i propose:

Edict 3.17 : Offering of mutual right of Passage to Papacy.

I understand that in current disturbed times. The Holy father needs an armed escort when moving around and we shouldnt think that as hostile action towards us.

To other matters. I see that in North there are German troops sitting on their hands and easy pickings to take:

Edict 3.18 : The Reich will take Antwerp from the rebels.

As i have heard Antwerp is almost undefended and we cant leave that rich city in hands of the rebels. I hope my fellow electors will consider these thoughts."

The Fifth Elector of Swabia bows to the Diet and takes his place.

[OverKnight]

Otto looks almost like his old self as he rises to speak:

First, Duke Leopold, I do not shirk from combat, anyone who was with me at Bern knows that. It is a strange accusation coming from someone who besieged Prague longer than the Greeks did Troy!

Turning from the Duke, Otto nods to the Fifth Elector of Swabia:

You have some good ideas there Sir. I will second edict 3.15. I appreciate the fact that it does not have a time frame.

The other edicts you propose, however, I will not second. 3.16 calls for a stop to our attacks against the Milanese if the Pope warns us to cease hostilities. I believe we can still attack Milanese forces within our borders and not violate this warning. Your edict, as I understand it, would call for a stop to all offensive actions against Milan, within or without our Empire. I admire the spirit of the edict though, as it mirrors 3.4.

3.17 would entail allying with the Pope and then giving him military access, this I cannot support.

I have heard from many travellers (OOC: Looking at our border with Antwerp in the game) that Antwerp has fallen to the Danes, this would invalidate 3.18. The Danes assaulted Antwerp from the sea, bypassing Hamburg, something the Diet should keep in mind when they decide on edict 3.11.

As for some of the other recent edicts. . .

Otto pauses to rub his right temple.

I second edicts 3.10 and 3.13.

I hope the Diet can recognize the distinction between opposing a plan of action but trying to ensure that if it passes, it is in a form that has the best chance of success. It is a fine line I admit, but one I must walk.

If, and I hope we do not, go to war with the Pope, the Kaiser deserves to lead the assault. We also need to make plans for the aftermath. As Maximillian has been the only one of the three calling for the war to spell out any strategies for coping with this, I will second his proposals that do not call for an immediate or mandated attack on the Pope.

Otto sits.

[Kagemusha]

The Swabian Elector stands up and says looking towards Otto Von Kassel:

"Thank you for clarification of the situation in Antwerp. I shall therefore withdraw Edict 3.18 : The Reich will take Antwerp from the rebels.
. Im still concerned of the Diets wiews about the Papacy and i recommend that the Diet should also think of the impact attacking Papacy and Excommunication could cause in the Reich. While i believe that The Holy Roman empire is the crown jewel of Christendom. Let it be made clear that i will not draw my sword against the Pope,who is still the representative of God on earth and i pray for the souls of those who would be willing to disgrace the Holy Father. Maybe those of you who are eager to attack Pope, should take the cross and go to fight the heathens in Holy land to purify your souls from evil."

Fifth Swabian Elector sits down.

[TinCow]

It appears that some of you have forgotten your loyalties to God and the Kaiser. Those who shy away from a conflict with Rome due to concerns about the welfare of the Reich at least have proper priorities, even if their conclusions are faulty. The same cannot be said of those of you who actively support the Usurper. To these people I say, beware. If you persist in your blasphemy, you will reap an unholy harvest, if not in this world, then in the next.

I have said all I wish to on these matters. It seems that most of you have made up your minds to support Satan's servant on Earth. As such, I will simply second several Edicts that I think are worthy of being put to the vote. I hereby second Edicts 3.8, 3.11, and 3.15. I would second Edict 3.9, but this Edict is not necessary, as Edicts expire at the end of the Chancellor's term in which they were proposed, unless they specifically state otherwise. Since Edict 1.1 did not contain such language, it has expired and does not need to be nullified.

[AussieGiant]

With a slight frown on his face the 4th Elector of House Austria rises to speak

I'd like to ask the Steward of Bavaria which church he is representing in order to use the words Usurper, blasphemy and Satan's servant on Earth to describe the Roman Catholic Church currently residing in Rome?

How have you come to your conclusion that the current church and its POPE are invalid Sir?

What is a "Properly ordained and appointed man" mean exactly, and how is subjecting the Catholic Church to Imperial Control going to be followed by members of the Clergy?

Is his issue with the person holding office or the establishment as a whole?

I'd like to point out that there seems to be a blurring between issues of faith and the secular or non-religious consequences of attacking Rome.

Likewise, the plan outlined by the Steward of Bavaria, does not address my question of what benefit this action gain for the Reich.

A loose explanation of a possible event timeline is not comforting.

Taking a seat the 4th Elector of House Austria summons a Page man and hands him a note

[TinCow]

Surely I do not need to give the Austrian Elector a history lesson. The Investiture Crisis, as people are calling it, is well known to all educated citizens of the Reich. This is not some old or forgotten issue. Pope Gregory illegally disregards Kaiser Heinrich's rights to approve of the appointment of clergymembers. These rights are ancient and have been upheld for nearly a thousand years. They do not cease to exist simply because some poorly bred bastard in Rome says they do. Kaiser Heinrich has not given his approval for Gregory's appointment, as such his Papacy is invalid. Those who support Gregory are supporting nothing less than a revolt against the ancient order of the Christian Church.

(OOC: This is all based on the historical conflict between Emperor Henry IV and Pope Gregory. Read the wiki article and you'll understand it's significance and why it's proper to have the Papal issue at the forefront of HRE politics at this time. Historically, Gregory won. CA actually based the starting order of the game on this, as reflected by the HRE's very low starting standing with the Pope and by Rome being one the HRE's victory conditions. Remember, both Henry IV (Heinrich) and Gregory are alive in our current game. Not likely that this issue would have been forgotten. Indeed, historically Henry V (Prinz Henry in our game) continued to fight the Papacy for the rights of Investiture and only gave them up late in his life.)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I remind aspiring candidates for Chancellor that they have slightly less than 13 hours to come forward. Otherwise, Sigismund der Stolze automatically is elected to the position.

As far as my opinion on this, I have already made my feelings public. The Reich will *not* come under attack from every single Catholic faction, because they all have their own problems, and I'm sure some of them have their own quarrels with the Pope. At the very least, we will have Sicily's support, meaning that Rome is surrounded by hostile people. That in itself will make Pope Gregory think twice about excommunicating us.

[OverKnight]

My lords, with only a few hours until voting begins, less than half of the proposed edicts have the needed two seconders to be on the ballot.

If you plan to second something, I would do it now.

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze looks up hurridly and gets to his feet.

Fellow Electors, I wish to second the following edicts:

Edict 3.1
Edict 3.2
Edict 3.3
Edict 3.5
Edict 3.8
Edict 3.9
Edict 3.10
Edict 3.15

Charter Ammendment 3.1
Charter Ammendment 3.3.

That is all. I thank you.

So saying, Sigismund resumes his seat.

[AussieGiant]

Quickly following Count Sigismund's lead the 4th Elector of Austria stands also.

I second edict 3.14

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: This session of the Diet is now closed. The chivalrous Count Sigismund der Stolze is hereby elected Chancellor of the Empire and will serve for 20 years (10 turns). May God grant him the wisdom and strength to see us through this war with Milan!

A list of seconded edicts will shortly be posted and voting on them opened for a 24 hour period.

Governors should prepare build queues for their settlements within these 24 hours. (OOC: Let's work on the assumption that Ammendment 3.3 passes so Counts govern their own settlements; Dukes/Stewards govern any others allocated to their Houses; the Emperor governs ones that are not allocated to any House. Ignoramus may want to liase with Tincow to allow him to appoint a Count in the event Ammendment 3.1 passes).

[Ignoramus]

Sigismund der Stolze stands up and addresses the Diet.

I am humbled by the honour that the Diet has bestowed upon. Let it be known that I will rule fairly and justly throughout the Reich. I shall defeat her enemies, and reward those who serve her.

Long live Kaiser Heinrich and the Reich!

Sigismund der Stolze resumes his seat quietly.

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel sits at his desk studying the latest voting results as provided by the Prinz's scribes (OOC:Thanks econ). Holding them in front of him, Otto rises to speak:

My lords, as most of the active members of the Diet have voted, I would like to comment on the results.

It seems the Diet, in its wisdom, has rejected the two most extreme edicts, 3.4 and 3.5., leaving the Chancellor with an interesting, but dangerous, middle ground to act in.

It is obviously the will of the Diet that Milan be quickly and utterly crushed, the passage of edicts 3.1, 3.8, and 3.15 show this. Edict 3.6 would perhaps be the only brake on this, but if it is ruled that it contradicts 3.8, than in the case of Milan at least, 3.8 would take precedence.

While not calling for a direct attack on Rome, 3.5 failed to pass, the Diet has chosen almost all aggressive acts short of war itself. We are to keep our alliance with Sicily, keep attacking Milan with no consideration to Papal condemnation and have designated the Kaiser the leader of our assault on Rome if it comes to pass. Again, 3.6 serves as the only restraint on this aggression by forbidding an attack on Rome, hence no declaration of war, and not allowing us to pursue any war to excommunication. As I mentioned before, the possible exception to this might be Milan.

I congratulate Count Sigismund der Stoltze on his election to Chancellor, but I do not envy him his task of building a cohesive whole out of these disparate edicts.

The possibility exists, despite the lack of a war with the Papacy and edict 3.6, that we will still be excommunicated. What will we do then? There is no authorization for war against the Papal States in the books, and we are directly forbidden from taking their seat of power. Other edicts call for acts that would continue to anger the Pope, making reconciliation difficult if not impossible.

What I am trying to say is that if we are excommunicated our response to it would be hamstrung by the current edicts that are likely to pass. War is out and reconciliation would be very difficult. That leaves us suffering under a prolonged excommunication, the horrible effects of which we have already covered in previous debate.

I suggest that if we are excommunicated during Chancellor der Stoltze's term that an emergency session of the Diet immediately be called. That way, we can asses the situation and decide on a proper course of action without the constraints of previous edicts.

Again, congratulations Chancellor der Stoltze! I look forward to the day when you bring those upstart Milanese back into the Reich!

My lords.

Otto sits, and returns to poring over voting results.

[AussieGiant]

My Lords, Gentlemen,

Firstly congratulations to our new Chancellor, Count Sigismund der Stoltze!!

At this point of proceedings I’d like to state my understanding of the edicts.

We are in a position to strike Milan to the point of reducing our standing with the Pope, BUT not to the point of being excommunicated. It seems very simple to me.

[AussieGiant]

The 4th Elector of Austria receives message from a scribe...he reads it intently, his eye open wide at the end...stand rather slowly the address the floor.

It has come to my attention gentlemen that my statement is not accurate.

My apologies to Sir Otto, he is indeed correct in his assesment.

It seems a small detail in the constitution will mean edict 3.8 will override 3.6.

I do believe we are heading down the road of excommunication in the near future.

If you would excuse me for a time gentlemen...

...I'm going to take myself outside and conduct a jousting session with Helmut. I'd like to get a feel for how my colleagues in Vienna are going to react to the news I bring them.

while heading toward the outer doors you hear the receeding voice of the 4th Elector shouting

Erwin you filthy sod!! Get my armour ready...and make sure its the one with the reinforced cod piece...I'm going to need it!!!

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze stands up with a grave expression on his face.

My fellow electors, Kaiser Heinrich, and my lord, Prinz Henry, I have just ordered Otto von Kassel to assault the rebellious city of Milan. May God grant him success that all future rebels may fear the wrath of the Reich.

Chancellor Sigismund resumes his seat.

[Ituralde]

Chancellor Sigismund! I would also like to extend my best wishes to your ascension to this important office within the Reich. I am convinced that the loyalty and chivalry you have shown in the past will suit you well to guid our Reich through this troubled times. I am confident that with your abilities you should be able to fulfill all Edicts proposed by this Assembly. I don't see 3.8 and 3.6 as being mutually exclusive, although to fulfill both would take some care a man that has shown so much promise during the last years should be able to do this.

Concerning the situation in Austria, the Venetian presence there makes me a little uneasy and if it were up to me I would take a small escort with me to follow the path of the first army. I think a watchtower between Vienna and Innsbruck in the Danube valley could put an end to the blind spot we've developed for that region. To hear that another small detachment has dared to intrude in our lands does not bode well. While I don't think that a dire enough reason is supplied yet, the Venetians are well on their way to break this alliance.

Meanwhile, with the retirement of Conrad von Schüsselen the post of Second Elector of Austria has become vacant and I'm pleased to announce that the former Fourth Elector of Austria shall henceforth occupy this important office and act as my voice in this Diet should I not be able to attend to our meetings. That is, if he survives the ordeal he is planning to put himself through.

Before I conclude I put all my faith in Otto von Kassels abilties as a commander and am sure that Milan will soon be back in the Reich, where it belongs!

[OverKnight]

A messenger rushes into the Diet and announces:

Otto von Kassel has captured Milan! The Reich is no longer divided!

He caught most of the garrison outside their city square, after killing their commander they surrendered on the spot. My lord decided to spare them as cornered men are vicious and he wanted to preserve his forces so that the Chancellor will have a strong garrison. No doubt the Milanese scum will try to retake their capital.

The city was sacked and my lord is sending nearly 11,000 florins to add to the Imperial coffers.

My lord Otto sends along his commendation to the spy who opened the gates, he did excellent work. He also wishes to thank the Chancellor for entrusting him with this command and who wisely infiltrated the agent into Milan before the assault.

My lord said that he would send along a full battle report shortly.

The messenger bows and exit.

[Kagemusha]

Fifth Elector of Swabia comments:

"Exellent news! Congratulations are in order for the commander! We have connected our Italian lands in to the Reich. I hope to hear soon from the development against both Genoa and Dijon!"

[TinCow]

Many congratulations to Otto von Kassel for his glorious achievements in Milan. As a reward for his loyal service to the Reich, I would like to bestow on him the title of Count. From now on, let all address him as Count Otto von Kassel. As for his province of assignment, both Bolognia and Innsbruck are available to him. He may inform the Chancellor of his choice in the appropriate administrative area. (OOC: Just pick one and post a build queue for it.)

As for the discussion about Edicts 3.6 and 3.8, it is an interesting situation. If we are not threatened with excommunication, then there is no conflict between them. If we are threatened with excommunication due to the war with Milan, they are directly opposed to one another. In such a case, Diet Rule 3.5 states that in the event of conflicting Edicts, the one with the most votes take priority. Since Edict 3.8 received more votes, it overrides Edict 3.6. Thus, the Chancellor is to continue the attacks on Milan even if threatened with excommunication.

[TinCow]

A servant rushes over to Maximillian Mandorf and whispers something in his ear. Mandorf's face grows dark. He replies to the servant with a few hushed words and the man rushes off.

My lords, it appears that Gregory has called for a Crusade against our allies the Sicilians. While the target is not what I had expected, I must emphasize that this is exactly what I predicted not several days past! If you had not hamstrung the Chancellor and restricted his actions against the Pope, we would now have a free reign to strike against Rome itself! I hope that all who voted against the attack on Rome will learn from this mistake of timidty and short-sightedness.

[AussieGiant]

Excellent news Mandorf!!

Standing in the doorway stands a battered and bruised figure of the newly minted 2nd Elector of Austria

I'm looking forward to spitting in the face of the known world!!

I must say, your ability to predict the future should come in very handy. That is assuming of course your skill doesn't become so pronounced as to draw the attention of institutions who may frown on such skill.

Do you perhaps have anymore titbits of information for this august body?

Duke Leopold,

My thanks for the promotion!! I must say getting beaten to a pulp by Helmut seems to have done my standing some good.

Maybe I should go outside for some more punishment, it might ready my soul for the banishment we will all face soon!!

chink, chink, chink crash, the 2nd Elector collapses into a seat on the Austrian benches, motioning to a passing servant he says;

Ale, bring me some ale my good man!!

It's going to be a fascinating couple of weeks here in God's Hell Hole.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

I congratulate Chancellor Sigismund and Sir Otto on their successes, but please remember that Edict 3.8 instructs that I am to play a role in the destruction of the Milanese as well.

As for the Crusade, obviously, there is no way that we shall risk our good Imperial troops to attack an ally. There is no need to call an emergency session for this, and I trust that our Chancellor will make the right decision.

-edit- In Dietrich von Saxony's absence, I name Fredricus von Hamburg (FLYdude) as Steward of Franconia.

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze yawns, and stands up to address the Diet.

I must congratulate Count Otto von Kassel on his commendable performance against the city of Milan. He fought well for the Reich.

Sigismund turns to the Kaiser.

Mein Kasier, I have not forgotten you. I know how much you loath these Milanese traitors, therefore I am sending you against Genoa. I know that under your command Genoa will fall.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Kaiser Heinrich:

Those dirty Venetian rats! I knew it would only be a matter of time before they turned on us!

I plead to Chancellor Sigismund to turn me around and march me straight to Venice once I have captured Genoa.

[Ignoramus]

Chancellor Sigismund der Stolze leaps to his feet and salutes the Kaiser.

You shall, my liege. I cannot refuse mein Kaiser anything. As for those treacherous merchants, they shall soon have their pockets picked.

[Ituralde]

A messenger from Vienna arrives in the Diet proclaiming from a scroll he holds at arms-length.

I have a message from Duke Leopold! He clears his throat.

A dire enough reason has been supplied by the Venetians!
I hope this gives every member of the Diet a brief pause to consider that an alliance is not made to last forever and this should be considered before turning against the might of Christianity!

I will repell those pesky Venetians as soon as possible and intend nothing less than march on their capital of Venice itself. They shall fear the might of the House of Austria and the Reich!

Your dutiful servant,

Duke Leopold

[OverKnight]

Otto von Kassel, a little more tan than you remember him, walks into the Diet. After a short time listening, he rises to speak:

My lords, our Chancellor Sigismund is well on the way to turning Milan, if that nation can still be called that since the Reich rules the city now, into an island republic. We have had an impressive string of victories. Much of what was lost in the past is now ours again!

Yet any victory comes with a cost, our forces our spread thin in Italy and elsewhere. In Milan, for example, I am garrisoning the city with my own retainers and a depleted unit of peasant archers. I can hold down the locals, never fear, but if Milan is besieged I do not have enough men to defend it. Vienna is besieged by the Venetians, and while I believe they will be repulsed if they attack the city, Duke Leopold lacks the necessary cavalry and archers to mount an effective sally.

I must make clear that this is not criticism, we have kept the Milanese off balance with a brilliant series of hammer blows. I doubt they can mount an effective counter-attack themselves. With the entry of the Venetians into this conflict however, the scope and size of our war has widened. They are fresh, and probably chose this time to strike because we are entangled with Milan. They can strike where the Milanese cannot, as they have shown with their siege of Austria's capital. They could easily move on Milan, Innsbruck, Florence or Bologna.

Having looked at the latest maps, with what forces are we to relieve Vienna with? With what forces are we to defend Italy with, if Venice decides to attack there or Milan recovers? We must consider these questions, or I fear a lack of answers will come back to haunt us.

I would suggest, for the time being, that we redeploy some nobles and units from Franconia and central Bavaria, our only quiet fronts at this point, to reinforce Austria and Italy. I would also suggest that we begin recruiting heavily again at Innsbruck and Staufen. Innsbruck troops can deploy to Italy through Milan or into Austria, or they can even strike at Venice if needed. Staufen troops can reinforce our assault on Dijon or head into Italy as well. If paying for these new troops requires delaying new buildings, I suggest we prioritize recruitment.

As for any thoughts of fighting the Pope, look at that army he seems to be parading around northern Italy. Even if we collected all the troops we have in that front together, it would still outnumber and outclass our forces. Now is not the time.

The Reich is strong! But we are not invincible.

My lords.

Otto sits.

OOC: Edited to remove a mention to Bern castle, I failed to realize that it has been converted to a town.

[AussieGiant]

Standing quickly the Austrian 2nd Elector begins

Count Otto is correct.

I have recieved personal word from Duke Leopold in Vienna that he is in no position to take the fight to the Venetians.

I fear we need to make sure we do not over extend ourselves. With a two front war now being waged, any further involvment by other nations could tip the balance. And that especially includes the Pope!!