The Kingdom of Outremer

[econ21]

Welcome, Jonas, welcome! Now we are five! This will be a most formiddable crusade!

[OverKnight]

Welcome von Mahren.

My lords, the Venetians are threatening Zagreb, our rally point, and have taken a bridge to the east of the new castle on our route. We seemed to have decided not to take the southern road to the Hellespont, and so avoid marching through their lands as to conserve our forces. Yet, the gathering Crusade Armies, with Duke Leopold away assaulting Venice, are the only sizeable Imperial forces in the area. The fate of Zagreb may depend on us unless the Austrian Army breaks their seige of Venice and marches back.

What should be our approach here? As I see it, the first option is to avoid all contact with the Venetians and march to the Holy Land as best we can with our rally point disrupted. We'd preserve our forces, but but they would be split. Von Saxony, von Mahren and I are north of that river, the Prinz and Chancellor south of it. I'm not sure how the northern forces could proceed without violating Hungarian territory.

The second option is to engage Venetian armies that are on our line of march, including our rally point, but not to seek out further battles even from nearby enemies. We will take casualties, but we can start our journey more quickly.

The third option is to leave our territories with a bang, crushing all Venetian forces around Zagreb and then starting our journey. We'd take more losses than in option two, but we'd leave the Reich more secure.

I would support the second option. At the least, we must not allow those four Venetian units on the bridge east of Zagreb to disrupt the meeting of our forces. They must be driven off so that we can start the Crusade at the designated place. As for Zagreb itself, I would be uncomfortable leaving it in peril. We are on a Holy Crusade, but we cannot forget our duty to the Reich. If the Venetians besiege Zagreb, and Leopold is unable to return in time, I fear we must also relieve the castle.

Your thoughts my lords?

[TinCow]

I agree, Duke von Kassel. We could certainly engage the Venetian army, but our losses would surely be staggering. After such a battle we would have to wait for further reinforcements to be trained before departing and we simply do not have the luxury of time in the matter. Zagreb is vulnerable, but it is a castle and can hold out for some time. If the Austrians believe that the Venetian army must be confronted immediately, then Duke Leopold could easily abandon the siege of Venice and march eastwards. If he left now, he could arrive by next year, before the Venetians would have any chance to assault the castle.

We must not squander our strength in this fight. Austria has a choice to make: attempt to hold Zagreb until Venice falls, or abandon the siege of Venice and defend Zagreb. The Reich will surely face many difficult times in the years ahead, but do not forget why this is so. We are under repeated assault due to our excommunication. The objective of this Crusade is to attempt to redeem ourselves in the eyes of the Pope. We will do more good by traveling east as fast as possible. Until we reach Muslim lands, let us fight only when our paths are blocked and we have no other choice.

Since our orders will have to be relayed to the Chancellor, I would like to discuss again Prinz Henry's proposal about appointing an Imperial Liason. I was serving in this role until recently, but since I am no longer Chancellor, I do not hold this position anymore. Obviously, if a Crusader is elected to Chancellor, he should be the Imperial Liason. However, if this does not happen, I would gladly continue my service in this role. (OOC: I think the Imperial Liason should post Crusade movement/attack orders in the Chancellor's Reports thread, like with Household Armies)

[Ituralde]

A messenger from the House of Austria arrives in the Crusader Council and starts reading a message from Duke Leopold

Honoured Crusaders!

I am as concerned as you are by the presence of a large Venetian host south of Zagreb. However this should not impede your advance on the Holy Land. While my forces are still tied up in Venice I will assault the city as soon as possible to make a quick return to Zagreb.
While this may give the Venetians the time they need to storm Zagreb castle, it will be easier for me to wrest it from them once I know that my back is secured and the Venetian capital is crushed. We can not afford to abandon Venice again, it is ripe for the taking and far more important than Zagreb.
I appreciate your concerns for Zagreb Castle, but agree that you should not make more contact with the enemy than is absolutely necessary to pass through Croatia towards Byzantine lands.

[econ21]

I agree that Maximillan would be the best man to fulfill the role of Imperial Liason in the event that a non-Crusader is elected Chancellor. I also propose that in such an event, Maximillan should also Chair this Council. The Liason will need to be clear what is the will of the Council and thus is the best person to Chair it, to avoid misunderstandings and ambiguities.

Give Duke Leopold's intervention, I reluctantly support Maximillan's opinion that we should not engage the Venetians unless they block our path. For my part, it will be hard to ignore the presence of enemies close to our armies. But I will defer to the Duke of Austria on this matter.

The presence of the Venetians near Zagreb does reinforce my point made earlier that if the Crusade is to have two separate elements, both should be balanced forces capable of defending themselves. I confess, I rather hope the Venetians try to stop us.

[TinCow]

I thank you for your support, my Prince. I have faith that we will be fully successful with a man of your quality taking part. Regarding the splitting of armies, do you then propose two equally sized forces? I understand your strategic concerns, but I am not positive that it is necessarily the right choice. Our Crusade is not so large that we can field two armies without weakening one. An equal two army march would mean two armies of 11 to 12 regiments each. Should we be faced with an enemy at full strength, we would be in grave danger. On the other hand, if we split our forces unevenly, then the smaller force risks being caught by an enemy and destroyed easily. It is a difficult decision and one we will have to consider carefully.

One option could be to use a small leading force, but assign to it only mounted regiments. Two of us plus the three regiments of Teutonic Knights would make for a force capable of sweeping away small bands of brigands who block our way. An entirely mounted vanguard would also have much greater freedom of movement. Should they spot an enemy that is too strong for them, they could retreat to the safety of the main body, join some of their strength to ours, and we could confront the foe in full force.

[Jalf]

Curse those Venetians! Normally I would argue for striking back at them as soon as possible, but if Leopold believes he can handle things without assistance from the Crusaders, I suppose we should leave the matter in his hands and focus on our Crusade.

As for the disposition of troops, I suggest we simply get moving in the order we arrive. The first group will naturally become the front army, and the rest will meet up and form the rear army once the last troops have arrived. Once we are moving, the infantry units in the front army can detach and fall back to join the rear army, and if neccesary, cavalry units from the rear army can catch up with those at the front. But most importantly, this won't delay us more than neccesary. I would rather not wait longer than neccesary. We are going to be away for quite a few years as it is, and the longer we wait,the more time our enemies will have both to prepare attacks on the Reich, and to stop us from reaching Jerusalem. I say we move out as quickly as possible, and exchange the neccesary troops between the two armies while travelling.

[econ21]

Maximillan, if I understood your earlier report correctly, perhaps 2/3 of the crusade under you and Dietrich will arrive at Zagreb before the remainder under Duke Otto. If we proceed with your present poposal of leading with a mounted advance guard, would that not imply we slow down our progress as the bulk of the infantry wait for Duke Otto? My proposal for an equal division of forces would mean that you and Dietrich could continue ahead while I wait with Duke Otto with whatever men would be necessary to strengthen his contingent and make a balanced force. I believe our skill and fervour will allow us to overcome even superior enemy forces. If there are high casualties, we can always unite the crusade.

[OOC: Moving with half-stacks may make the AI try to attack us, which would be more fun. ]

[Kagemusha]

I support Prinz Henry´s latest proposal. Also by moving in two parts would allow us to recruit local mercenaries if needed. I think we may need horsemen with bows,before we reach our destination. I think the latter part of crusade will surely catch up the Vanguard when the Vanguard stumbles into enemy armies.

[TinCow]

In this Council all voices hold equal weight. I shall agree to a splitting of the armies. As such, I would like to propose the following division of forces:

Lead Army:
Maximillian Mandorf
Duke von Saxony
Jonas von Mahren
2 regiments Sergeant Spearmen
2 regiments Armored Spearmen
2 regiments Peasant Crossbowmen
1 regiment Teutonic Knights
partial regiment Dismounted Feudal Knights

Trailing Army:
Prinz Henry
Duke von Kassel
2 regiments Dismounted Feudal Knights
2 regiments Pavise Crossbowmen
2 regiments Teutonic Knights
2 regiments Armored Spearmen
1 regiment Sergeant Spearmen

This division will provide both armies with 4 regiments of cavalry, 2 ranged regiments, and 5 regiments of infantry, a perfect split. In addition, it will be simple to arrange. I will continue on with the entire force near Venice, where I shall meet up with the Franconians. They shall detach the following regiments which shall wait for Duke von Kassel to meet them: 2 Armored Spearmen, 1 Sergeant Spearmen, 2 Teutonic Knights. Prinz Henry will make his way to Duke von Kassel's force as best as he is able.

[econ21]

Maximillan, that division sounds excellent.

I agree with Dietrich: if we are to recruit any mercenaries, horse archers would be first on my shopping list.

[Kagemusha]

"Surely my friend Mandorf would put my name first in the first army list since im the most senior member of that army in rank,age and experience." Dietrich says with a little smile on his face.

"Gentlemen,do we have anything else to consider,or are we ready to start this journey after the Diet has been finished?"

[TinCow]

Prinz Henry, I agree with the Chancellor's opinion that we divert north around the Venetian forces. This will allow you to join Duke von Kassel quickly and avoid conflict with the Venetians. I have no doubt that we could defeat them, but our casualties could be higher than we would wish. I would prefer to delay battle until the armies are fully formed. Do you agree that we should divert through the Alps?

[econ21]

Count Mandorf, I am happy to defer to the judgement of the Chancellor and yourself on this matter. I look forward to joining forces with Duke Otto.

[OverKnight]

My lords, I have been informed by our priests travelling ahead of us that the Thessalonica region is Venetian. This along with Hungary's declaration of war against us is unfortunate, but we will be able to travel more quickly now. We also stand less of a chance of angering the Byzantines, for they have less lands to trespass on now.

Should this news change our route or approach?

[TinCow]

My standing orders to the Chancellor stated that in the event of war with Hungary, we are to proceed at the fastest possible route to the Hellespont. I admit, I have been busy with prayer and religious contemplation lately and have not looked at the map. Would one of the more geographically aware Crusaders educate me as to our exact position?

[OverKnight]

My cartographer appears to be drunk (OOC: ImageShack is acting cranky). But we are on the northern road in the Zagreb region about two years journey from the Hungarian border. If we keep following the road, which the Hungarians have been kind enough to pave, we will be following the northern route I proposed a few years ago.

Ah, he woke up and has provided a map.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Should we hunt down that Heretic? I'm not sure if our priests could denounce him successfully.

[econ21]

Prinz Henry: As you know, I have a particular distaste for inquisitors. If he does not do for us first, then yes, I believe we should hunt him down. This may also provide an opportunity to reunite the crusade.

Has anyone received word from my son, Hans? Does he intend to join us?

[TinCow]

It is unfortunate that one of the priests who has volunteered to travel with us has fallen from the light of the Lord. It is our sworn duty to bring the true Word of God to the disbelievers and it would be a disservice if we allowed one of our own to pollute the Reich's lands with heresies. I agree with Duke von Kassel that our remaining priests may not be experienced enough to successfully prosecute such a man. However, Prinz Henry has had previous experience with the inquisitorial process. Perhaps he would be willing to give his personal attention to this matter, after his army has ensured that the man cannot escape.

[OverKnight]

With the passing of Kaiser Heinrich, God rest his soul, it will be impossible for me to continue as the leader of the trailing army. Kaiser Henry, may your reign bring us glory and redemption my lord, has pride of place, and of course leadership of the army falls to him.

The disadvantage to enforcing the chain of command is that the Kaiser, Kaiser Henry that is, does not use some of the more severe methods I employ to keep the troops moving. We might end up lagging behind Dietrich's army.

I believe it is of critical importance that we keep the two armies close together. Our separation provides us with flexibility, but I would not be so far apart that a large enemy force could isolate and attack one of us.

Your thoughts my lords?

OOC: This could also effect leadership while econ is on sabbatical. I'd be happy to fight any battles that crop up but it would be under the Kaiser Henry's banner, as it were, since he is the Faction Leader and not Otto's.

Edit: I game tested a bit, since Henry's promotion took place while he was in a stack with Otto, it seems that Otto is still the leader of the stack. However I'm not sure if this would hold up if we went into battle, I do know that if Henry leaves and reenters the stack, he assumes command then.

[OverKnight]

My lords, we face an interesting situation as we enter Hungary. If I could draw your attention to this map:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Getting the Crusade safely around the Fortress of Sofia will be challenging.

Should we change our course? Or should we draw the armies closer together? Or continue as we have been?

Thanks to Count Steffen, it seems the Hungarians have a new prince.

[TinCow]

Our course of action will be entirely dependant upon what the Hungarian Prince does this year. It is entirely possible that the Hungarians could attack us, remain where they are, defending Sofia, or even march off elsewhere. I believe we should wait to make such a decision until we see what they do.

[Kagemusha]

Dietrich Von Saxony:

I agree with Von Mandorf.If the Hungarians attack,we will fight them.If not we will move further.We have good mixed army compositions to destroy the Magyars,if they dare to attack us.

[OverKnight]

OOC Question:

Are there any significant posts from this thread that belong in the chronology? I have a link for the formation of the Council of Crusaders in 1154, but are there any other years we should link to this thread?

Obviously, the year that the Crusade officially began moving would be an important date. I'm guessing that's 1160, but I could be wrong.

I'd appreciate any input you all might have.

[OverKnight]

My lords, it is of critical importance that our newly returned cavalry reach us safely. However, I do not think the Crusade should wait for them in the Lion's den we now find ourselves in.

I ask that I be sent to retrieve the cavalry. I will take command of the force and catch up with the rest of you as soon as possible, most likely once you have crossed into Venetian held Thessaly. They should have a noble in command as they cross these plains. (OOC: There should be a human to lead them if the Teutons and mailed knights are attacked).

It will be dangerous, but no more so than what we face every day since we have left the Reich.

What say you my fellow Crusaders?

[econ21]

Duke Otto, your volunteering to escort my wayward son is a noble act and I am grateful for your chivalry. But I fear that being in proximity to a powerful Hungarian army, we cannot risk even a strong detachment of knights moving alone. If the Hungarians were to strike with a full army, surely you, my son and all your knights would fall? I believe the only prudent move would be for our entire rearguard army to reunite with Hans and his contingent of knights - even if that means halting or backtracking. The advanceguard army, under Duke von Saxony could continue on if it is judged prudent. The rearguard would catch up as best we can.

It greatly displeases me that the progress of our crusade must be delayed by the disobedient and glory-hunting antics of my son - particularly when it means we must tarry in such a dangerous situation as that in which we presently reside. Nonetheless, I do propose we must delay - not to protect my son, but the many knights that he brings with him. They will be a valuable resource in our many battles to come in the Holy Land. We cannot risk them being squandered if they are attacked alone without infantry when scarcely beyond our Reich's borders.

[ooc: I am not sure what the situation in the savegame is, but if Duke Otto is proposing to end a turn alone with Hans and the knights near a full stack Hungarian army, I think that's too risky. Better to move our entire stack to join Hans.]

[Kagemusha]

I think that Kaiser is right in his assumptions and i support manouvering like he has suggested. I think that we must move as large united forces or we might never see even Bosphorus.

[econ21]

I have now consulted the maps (OOC: 1174-2.zip) and better understand the situation. The practical implication of my earlier statement is that the rearguard move back to the bridge to rendezvous with the knights. I believe this union would make both the knights and the rearguard more capable of defending themselves against the Hungarians. I am quite set in my mind that this should be done.

What is an open question is the fate of the advanceguard. They could either march on, hold in place or return with the rearguard. I believe this should ultimately be the decision of Duke Dietrich and Count Maximillan. Personally, I think they should press on. I always envisaged the advanceguard moving ahead. For it to back track with the rearguard would too conservative and backward a step. Staying in place, alone against the Hungarians would seem the worst option of all - providing neither progress nor security.

[OverKnight]

Let me illustrate my plan before it is dismissed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Kaiser Henry's army has a clear path into the eastern pass into Thessaly. Duke Dietrich's army will have to run off the small Hungarian army to his west before following. At the end of this year, you will both be out of Hungarian territory. I doubt they will pursue you into Venetian territory as they are not at war with them.

At the same time I will meet up with the cavalry back at the bridge over the Morava river. The following year (turn) I will be able to cross into Venetian territory by the western pass, avoiding the Hungarians. Using the superior movement rate of the horsemen, I will be able to avoid any enemies and catch up with the Crusade before it reaches the Hellespont.

This plan has the advantage of keeping the majority of the Crusade together, and utilizing the superior speed of the cavalry to avoid any delays in our march to the Holy Land.

Edit: I would not propose this plan if I was not confident of its success. Unleash me, and I swear I will bring these men back.

Please reconsider my lords.

[OverKnight]

OOC: I feel the current structure works well for deciding strategic goals and setting standard operating procedure and movement orders. However, when it comes to short term problems and tactics, such as being surrounded by the pink horde or retrieving the cav, getting a consensus from everyone in a timely fashion for the Chancellor is problematic.

Perhaps if a situation like this arises again, the Chancellor can consult with the Crusaders who he can access at the moment to decide a course of action. This is not ideal, but it is expedient. I'm sure whoever is available would have a good idea of the thinking of the others and would keep in mind they would have to eventually defend their decision.

On the bright side this will only be a problem for 6 more years.