Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[Spartan198]

I posted this in the Monastery last night, but have yet to get a serious response.

Other than archery and horsemanship, what encompassed the education of a Sarmatian child?

[Hax]

..what education?

Well, I think it depends on the wealth of the kid and the location. I think when on the move constantly (seeing how they are a migratory state) there would be fairly little time to really educate children, except in the art of war.

[Elmetiacos]

Here's a question I always wondered. The modern human is probably (on average) taller than the average human of ancient times. Celts were always described as being tall with rippling muscles and of fair hair. How tall do you think they actually were? To be considered "tall" by today's standards usually means over 6 ft. Were the ancient celts this tall or really 5'8 and considered tall at the time?

I've seen a pdf on anthropmetric history which says that in the EB period, the average height for men was 171.9cm (5' 7½") in the Eastern Mediterranean region, but it doesn't differentiate between regions. So the Greeks weren't that small, at least.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I posted this in the Monastery last night, but have yet to get a serious response.

Other than archery and horsemanship, what encompassed the education of a Sarmatian child?

Lower classes: probably everything somebody who's going to herd cattle later in life needed to know;
Aristocracy: probably everything aristrocracy across the world needed to know. Culture, literature, things about the outside world, writing, speaking in public/at courts, politics, basic things about the economy of his/her people etc. etc.

[Ludens]

Are the Hetairoi wearing long chainmail sleaves? I am asking because they appear to be the only unit that does so. I am not sure about the Seleucid cataphracts, but IIRC all cataphracts use cheires, and all other Hellenic cavalry units have bare arms. Even the Thorakitai Agematos Basilikou don't have lower-arm protection, and to my limited knowlegde chainmail sleaves that cover the entire arm are a post Dark-age development. So what are the Hetairoi wearing?

[QuintusSertorius]

Aspiring to the Senate was not simply an individual choice, but a family project. Continuing failure to secure a seat would be deadly to the entire family's prestige. And if money was the motive, there was no more profitable position than the senatorial office of provincial governor. In principle, the resources of the entire province were under his control. Any publicani or merchants there would be beholden to him.

Been doing some more reading around this point, and if anything I think it's more telling how many among the equites class didn't pursue a political career than did. There were only a 300-500 seats in the Senate (depending at which time we're talking about).

The only offices that would actually result in a significant return were those of praetor and consul. Both of which were an expensive business to attain (elections, bribery, later on vast sums spent holding games), and weren't even guaranteed to result in a rich province to plunder. It was an extremely high risk strategy which only a minority would be willing to take. It's no coincidence that the highest offices were monopolised by a select group of families.

[paullus]

hey Ludens--

its based primarily on the chain mail sleeves on a statue of one of Pyrrhos' Friends. It likely won't be universal on hetairoi in EB2.

[mlc82]

A couple of easy questions here that I'm wondering-

1. This is probably a dumb one, but was the woad shown in use by Casse warriors a kind of dye/paint applied before battle, or actually tattooed under the skin?

2. Where was the Roman scutum (the big, curved one generally associated with Marian Legionaries, not sure how much the design changed between the Camillan-Polybian times til then) actually gripped? Every pic I've seen of reenactors (including one site actually detailing the grip), along with the EB soldier models, looks like they're reaching forward and somehow gripping it with their fist (or even straight in and downward), instead of sliging it across their forearm the way I'd assume most shields were gripped.

It seems that holding a shield this way in battle, and actualy taking blows on it, would have just smashed your knuckles into a disfigured, useless mass. These guys must have had the strongest front deltoids in the world as well.

[QuintusSertorius]

Woad is paint.

[NeoSpartan]

...
2. Where was the Roman scutum (the big, curved one generally associated with Marian Legionaries, not sure how much the design changed between the Camillan-Polybian times til then) actually gripped? Every pic I've seen of reenactors (including one site actually detailing the grip), along with the EB soldier models, looks like they're reaching forward and somehow gripping it with their fist (or even straight in and downward), instead of sliging it across their forearm the way I'd assume most shields were gripped.

It seems that holding a shield this way in battle, and actualy taking blows on it, would have just smashed your knuckles into a disfigured, useless mass. These guys must have had the strongest front deltoids in the world as well.

The same way u see in the game, the same way the Celts & many others hold it.

It had a horizontal grip in the boss like this:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/pag...res/scutum.jpg

http://www.ancienttouch.com/1309.jpg

http://www.wulflund.com/images_items...-bobigny_2.jpg

[mlc82]

The same way u see in the game, the same way the Celts & many others hold it.

It had a horizontal grip in the boss like this:

http://www.wildfiregames.com/0ad/pag...res/scutum.jpg

http://www.ancienttouch.com/1309.jpg

http://www.wulflund.com/images_items...-bobigny_2.jpg

Thanks!

[MeinPanzer]

hey Ludens--

its based primarily on the chain mail sleeves on a statue of one of Pyrrhos' Friends. It likely won't be universal on hetairoi in EB2.

That's not the statuette from Dodona, is it?



If so, what made you interpret that as mail and not just a long-sleeved decorated tunic? It seems extremely unusual to me for someone to wear a linothorax over mail.

[konny]

The only offices that would actually result in a significant return were those of praetor and consul. Both of which were an expensive business to attain (elections, bribery, later on vast sums spent holding games), and weren't even guaranteed to result in a rich province to plunder. It was an extremely high risk strategy which only a minority would be willing to take. It's no coincidence that the highest offices were monopolised by a select group of families.

Even lower offices could hold a good share of profit. Imagine that a provincial Praetor or a Proconsul very much ruled like a king over his territory (the Senate far away, even more no one there to bother with controling the governors on a regular basis etc). That gave the governors nearly complete freedom to do what they liked, knowing that they hardly would be fined for anything. That meant in return that their Quaestors and Legats could make a good deal of money, in particular when their Praetor was either weak or even completely absent:

Pompeius was governor of both Spains but hanging around in Rome most of the times, Caesar was responsible for both Gauls and Illyricum but was usually outside his provinces campaigning in free Gaul, Sulla was travelling up and down through Anatolia and Upper Mesopatamia during the time he was expected to run things in Cilicia; to name just some prominent examples.

Now, someone must have done the Roman day to day business in these provinces: contracts to sign, buildings to maintain, roads to build, troops to supply and stuff like that. A good time for a legat to make a coin or two in bribes while his Praetor was adventuring elsewhere and the Senate far, far away.

[paullus]

MP, I wouldn't say that's a normal linothorax either, if a linothorax at all, and its not an original EB interpretation that its chain mail.

[abou]

Generally, wouldn't a pattern have been painted on a figurine? With the dimpling chain seems to be the likelier choice.

Excellent picture though, MP.

[russia almighty]

this question is kinda effed up and is in the modern realm.


Did any decently ranked nazi's who did not get executed by us, the Israels, ect, ever go on to write anything? I dunno, but it would be interesting to here what they thought about the bomb (probably thank god, they didn't use it on us), the situation the world was in at the time ect.

I dunno, you can get history about the post war period from anyone else, but for some morbid reason, I want to hear from them.

[Atilius]

Did any decently ranked nazi's who did not get executed by us, the Israels, ect, ever go on to write anything?

Albert Speer, German Minister of Armaments (1942-45), wrote a book published in english as Inside The Third Reich (1970). He also authored a few others, though I don't remember the titles.

[lobf]

this question is kinda effed up and is in the modern realm.

As far as I'm concerned, the honest pursuit of knowledge can't be offensive.

[russia almighty]

I figured inside of the Third Reich would have come up.


I'm basically trying to find what any of the left overs thought about the bomb, how it wasn't one super power vs. a group of middle to high powers and anymore, but two super powers both capable of destroying the Earth going at each other, and there use of proxy wars vs. direct conflict.

I kinda already know about the bomb from one source, I think it was Himmler that basically said the allies were hypocrites for prosecuting them for killing the jews and other groups, while we fire bombed everything, and, nuked two cities.

[abou]

As far as I'm concerned, the honest pursuit of knowledge can't be offensive.

Maybe not, but how that pursuit is voiced certainly can be.

[Ludens]

its based primarily on the chain mail sleeves on a statue of one of Pyrrhos' Friends. It likely won't be universal on hetairoi in EB2.

Thank you for the answer, and thanks for the picture, MeinPanzer.

[keravnos]

That's not the statuette from Dodona, is it?



If so, what made you interpret that as mail and not just a long-sleeved decorated tunic? It seems extremely unusual to me for someone to wear a linothorax over mail.

Every single one interpretation of the statue I have read, calls this mail.
So far as wearing linothorax over a mail cuirass, people wore it over the spolas.

Other interpretations exist of course, but the presence of Celts in Epeiros, and especially their ironsmiths, really points to that direction. I wish it was a full statue, so that we could have better details on them and the armor they wore, but as it is we are all left to ponder upon the statuette you see. I, personally, believe it is mail.

[konny]

I kinda already know about the bomb from one source, I think it was Himmler that basically said the allies were hypocrites for prosecuting them for killing the jews and other groups, while we fire bombed everything, and, nuked two cities.

How did he do that? He committed suicide half a year before the bombs were dropped.

Nevertheless, allied mass bombing of cities, along with other crimes of war were often brought up to counterweight the Holocaust (both in Nürnberg and later). I think the bizzar logic behind that (crimes committed against a people that you are at war with vs. crimes committed against part of your own population or people that you allready had subjugated) needs not to be discussed here further.

[MeinPanzer]

MP, I wouldn't say that's a normal linothorax either, if a linothorax at all, and its not an original EB interpretation that its chain mail.

Could you explain about the linothorax a bit? I have a hard time believing that the incised detail is meant to represent metallic plating- the middle bands, for instance.

Every single one interpretation of the statue I have read, calls this mail.

I'm admittedly not very well read on this figurine, but I can name at least one interpretation that does not take it as mail- Laube, Ingrid, Thorakophoroi, Gestalt und Semantik des Brustpanzers in der Darstellung des 4. bis 1. Jhs v. Ch.r, Verlag Marie Leidorf GmbH, Rahden/Westf., 2006, p. 65-6.

Can you cite some of the ones that interpret this as mail?

So far as wearing linothorax over a mail cuirass, people wore it over the spolas.

There's a huge difference between a heavy textile garment like the spolas and a mail cuirass, though, on almost all levels.

Other interpretations exist of course, but the presence of Celts in Epeiros, and especially their ironsmiths, really points to that direction. I wish it was a full statue, so that we could have better details on them and the armor they wore, but as it is we are all left to ponder upon the statuette you see. I, personally, believe it is mail.

Addressing this more closely, I see a lot of problems with identifying what he's wearing as mail.

I'd say concerning the time period that I have serious doubts that mail reached Epeiros by the time of Pyrrhos. When you mention the presence of Celtic ironsmiths in Epeiros, what evidence are you referring to?

Now, addressing the figurine directly:

Firstly, if this is mail, where is the bottom edge of this figure's tunic? One would expect to see it ending above the knee but below the edge of the mail. Looking back at depictions of mail cuirasses from elsewhere, from the Hellenistic period through Roman times, the bottom edge of the tunic is always visible below the edge of the cuirass, obviously to alleviate the chafing that would have occurred if it wasn't long enough.

Secondly, the cuffs or raised edges of the sleeves look totally out of place for mail.

Thirdly, why would a man wear mail underneath a linothorax (even one that was made with metal plate, if that's what you wanted to interpret it as)? The point of wearing mail is that it is flexible but still strong, and wearing armour on top of it would obviously be restrictive. However, the strongest argument against identifying this as mail comes from the pteruges: why on earth, if you were wearing a mid-thing length mail shirt, would you wear a cuirass with linen or textile pteruges?

On the other hand, it's clear from several sources that it was fashionable for Macedonian cavalrymen to wear long-sleeved tunics until the beginning of the third century BC, and I think it's quite reasonable to assume that such a fashion could have reached Epeiros and still been current in Pyrrhos' day. The artisan who created this item clearly used incised designs to show surface details- one need only look at the linothorax to see that- and so I think it's quite clear that the spots on the garment are just the decoration of a tunic.

[The Persian Cataphract]

I dispute the usage of tunic hemlines to assess the existance of armour: The Dura-Europos facsimile depicts unusually equipped swordsmen, including hauberks completed with coifs, all in chain-maille without featuring these supposed tunic hems, suggesting that the clothing, was at length, and therefore suggesting the practical measurements of a hauberk directly taken from a full-sleeved tunic. Traditionally, hauberks are full-sleeved (The reliefs at Fîrûzâbâd, depicting several early Sassanian knights, would rather suggest that the shirts extended past the knuckles, and even there, no hem-line), and extend well beyond the waist.



I couldn't find a better picture of the facsimile, but there are a number of sketches; The soldiers wear trousers and shoes. A better sketch:



One very interesting detail: In the upper row, the right-most shield-bearer appears to showcase an interesting suspension between the tiny flap showing the hem of his tunic, and his hauberk.

Given that the Dodona statuette is a bit unusual, the fact that the soldier carries a linothorax or possibly a lamellate cuirass (Perhaps one should ponder as to why the embellishment of the tunic/hauberk is more pronounced than the details on the linothorax itself... My own bet is that this indeed is chain maille) on top of a hauberk is not at all unusual as a practice: I already mentioned the reliefs at Fîrûzâbâd, but the most interesting part is that there is an early Sassanian knight, wearing a "one-piece" cuirass on top of maille, wrestling a late Parthian contender, wearing laminated armour and a tabard, both on horse-back. The fact that the Parthian knight indeed wears a tabard is due to the fact that it has folds and creases. The less damaged Sassanian knight's torso appears to be more rigid and actually maintains a straight posture (Whereas earlier art usually depicts horsemen in more proned positions). Another, more orthodox solution is of course the Near-Eastern maille-and-plate (As seen on the Dura grafito of a clibanarius), or the later incarnation of a klibanion/tannûr lamellar coat worn on top of maille.

Wearing a linothorax on top of a hauberk therefore is not that strange a notion to me; Considering how we also see laminated armour in combined use with muscled cuirasses and linothrakes, the combination seems unorthodox, but not impractical. Of course, it could be decorated felt, and certainly there are obvious arguments for it, such as the odd creasing in the middle of the "tunic", but somehow I have some difficulty convincing myself that it's a decorated tunic; The texture itself appears very coarse.

[MeinPanzer]

I dispute the usage of tunic hemlines to assess the existance of armour: The Dura-Europos facsimile depicts unusually equipped swordsmen, including hauberks completed with coifs, all in chain-maille without featuring these supposed tunic hems, suggesting that the clothing, was at length, and therefore suggesting the practical measurements of a hauberk directly taken from a full-sleeved tunic. Traditionally, hauberks are full-sleeved (The reliefs at Fîrûzâbâd, depicting several early Sassanian knights, would rather suggest that the shirts extended past the knuckles, and even there, no hem-line), and extend well beyond the waist.

There is one major difference between these troops and the Dodona statuette, and that is that the soldiers from the Dura Europus fresco wear trousers. If you wear trousers, then it's not necessary to wear a long tunic to abate chafing on the legs. For someone with bare legs, the situation is quite different.

Given that the Dodona statuette is a bit unusual, the fact that the soldier carries a linothorax or possibly a lamellate cuirass (Perhaps one should ponder as to why the embellishment of the tunic/hauberk is more pronounced than the details on the linothorax itself... My own bet is that this indeed is chain maille) on top of a hauberk is not at all unusual as a practice: I already mentioned the reliefs at Fîrûzâbâd, but the most interesting part is that there is an early Sassanian knight, wearing a "one-piece" cuirass on top of maille, wrestling a late Parthian contender, wearing laminated armour and a tabard, both on horse-back. The fact that the Parthian knight indeed wears a tabard is due to the fact that it has folds and creases. The less damaged Sassanian knight's torso appears to be more rigid and actually maintains a straight posture (Whereas earlier art usually depicts horsemen in more proned positions). Another, more orthodox solution is of course the Near-Eastern maille-and-plate (As seen on the Dura grafito of a clibanarius), or the later incarnation of a klibanion/tannûr lamellar coat worn on top of maille.

Firstly, I don't think that the embellishment on the tunic is more pronounced than on the cuirass, but that rather it's a practical matter of the weight incised lines versus incised dots - look at the dots on the bands around the waist, which are just as prominent as those on whatever he is wearing.

Secondly, the solid or semi-solid chestpieces of numerous Sassanian and Parthian cavalry (Dura Europus graffito, Tang-i Sarvak relief, the Firuzabad reliefs) appear to be integrated as part of composite cuirasses, like those for which we have physical evidence from later Sarmatian graves. I think, however, that we can agree that the cuirass that the Dodona figurine is wearing was most certainly not connected to whatever was underneath it- mail or textile.

And as for the Firuzabad Sassanian wrestling the Parthian, I don't think we can read much from his posture since he is shown in the highly unsual act of wresting another man while on horseback.

Wearing a linothorax on top of a hauberk therefore is not that strange a notion to me; Considering how we also see laminated armour in combined use with muscled cuirasses and linothrakes, the combination seems unorthodox, but not impractical.

The issue which I have with this and with the combination of mail and solid armour found elsewhere is that in those cases the combination of different kinds of armour makes perfect sense- solid pectorals protect the vulnerable chest, while flexible mail or laminated limb defences provide more flexible coverage of the other parts of the body. In this case though, it makes absolutely no sense to have a cuirass with pteruges on top of mail.

Of course, it could be decorated felt, and certainly there are obvious arguments for it, such as the odd creasing in the middle of the "tunic", but somehow I have some difficulty convincing myself that it's a decorated tunic; The texture itself appears very coarse.

The creasing doesn't strike me as being odd at all. What about it do you consider odd? I too would consider the texture of the tunic as unusual were it not for the artist's clear use of incised decoration elsewhere on the figure.

[The Persian Cataphract]

The creasing appears odd, if we posit that it is a hauberk, because the linothorakes would be suspended on top of it, like a girdle, or if you will, a large belt. Creases, if any, on chain maille that has been properly suspended by a belt, should be horizontal. The crease is pointing outwards, not inwards. I might be nitpicking on worthless details though.

Secondly, the solid or semi-solid chestpieces of numerous Sassanian and Parthian cavalry (Dura Europus graffito, Tang-i Sarvak relief, the Firuzabad reliefs) appear to be integrated as part of composite cuirasses, like those for which we have physical evidence from later Sarmatian graves. I think, however, that we can agree that the cuirass that the Dodona figurine is wearing was most certainly not connected to whatever was underneath it- mail or textile.

That may be true for the Dura-Europos grafito of the late-Parthian/early-Sassanian clibanarius; He appears to wear a maille-and-plate armour at hauberk-length, then covered by laminated armour. Wilcox was in favour of the veil; Gorelik reconstructed it with a twist, as he made it maille-scale-plate and interpreted the head as wearing a mask. Nevertheless an exceedingly heavy-armoured warrior, in all interpretations I know of, as wearing a composite armour type.

However, as for the Sassanian knight at Fîrûzâbâd, I have found that there are three known interpretations: The nowadays defunct perception of a poorly depicted tabard on top of maille. The middle-ground, as proposed by Wilcox, a "sort-of" coat-of-plates (Which would supposedly explain the lack of folds and creases on the proposed tabard, and therefore make the bottom rim an integrated girdle/belt), and finally the most accepted view within Iranology, a cuirass worn on top of maille. You propose however that the maille is integrated with the cuirass? As in that the maille sleeves are merely attached like armoured socks on the cuirass and that the chain resting above the knees are "sort-of" like pteryges? That is unusual, and in real-life application, impractical due to maintenance and actual deployment of such a solution; A reconstructed sketch of this relief shows that the cuirass in question rests just right below the neck. It is possible that it may be as you have described it, as it would certainly make for less weight... But the problem with this proposal is that we see the knight bend his arm and still have all that maille extending beyond his knuckles, which leads me to believe that he is wearing a full hauberk underneath a cuirass, à la "Châhâr Âynêh" (Early Safavid heavy cavalry). Nevertheless, your proposal is more plausible than the mere tabard.

And as for the Firuzabad Sassanian wrestling the Parthian, I don't think we can read much from his posture since he is shown in the highly unsual act of wresting another man while on horseback.

The depiction itself is unusual, but testifies of Iranian chivalry and abilities in melee; The Parthian is wrestling right back (He locks his arm onto the Sassanian), on boot wearing laminate armour. Neither are riding on the horned saddle, and in an era where stirrups were not yet invented, it is quite remarkable and contrasts popular account of heavily armed cavalry not faring that well in melee.

Nevertheless, it's just a trans-cultural reference (Before we tread out too far into the unknown); The Hellenistic states are not my forte, and the Dura facsimile is no more than what I normally recognize as the earliest portrayal of full-sized maille (And coif) in the Near East, in addition to the mentioned Fîrûzâbâd reliefs. Like I said before, the Dodona statuette, if it features maille, it is certainly an unusual depiction.

[MeinPanzer]

The creasing appears odd, if we posit that it is a hauberk, because the linothorakes would be suspended on top of it, like a girdle, or if you will, a large belt. Creases, if any, on chain maille that has been properly suspended by a belt, should be horizontal. The crease is pointing outwards, not inwards. I might be nitpicking on worthless details though.

I understand what you mean, but I don't think a particular detail like that could be used to argue either way because this is, after all, a piece of art, and so is susceptible to the whims of the artist.

You propose however that the maille is integrated with the cuirass? As in that the maille sleeves are merely attached like armoured socks on the cuirass and that the chain resting above the knees are "sort-of" like pteryges? That is unusual, and in real-life application, impractical due to maintenance and actual deployment of such a solution; A reconstructed sketch of this relief shows that the cuirass in question rests just right below the neck. It is possible that it may be as you have described it, as it would certainly make for less weight... But the problem with this proposal is that we see the knight bend his arm and still have all that maille extending beyond his knuckles, which leads me to believe that he is wearing a full hauberk underneath a cuirass, à la "Châhâr Âynêh" (Early Safavid heavy cavalry). Nevertheless, your proposal is more plausible than the mere tabard.

I have not been able to examine detailed reproductions of these reliefs, so in this case it does sound like a full hauberk is the most plausible. I wouldn't rule such a composite construction out altogether, though, given the finds from the Zolotoe kladbishche and Roshava Dragana Sarmatian burials which seem to have featured a mail "top" and "skirt" joined by a band of plates around the waist and the body of the armour joined to sleeves by bands running across the shoulders.

[QuintusSertorius]

Even lower offices could hold a good share of profit. Imagine that a provincial Praetor or a Proconsul very much ruled like a king over his territory (the Senate far away, even more no one there to bother with controling the governors on a regular basis etc). That gave the governors nearly complete freedom to do what they liked, knowing that they hardly would be fined for anything. That meant in return that their Quaestors and Legats could make a good deal of money, in particular when their Praetor was either weak or even completely absent:

Pompeius was governor of both Spains but hanging around in Rome most of the times, Caesar was responsible for both Gauls and Illyricum but was usually outside his provinces campaigning in free Gaul, Sulla was travelling up and down through Anatolia and Upper Mesopatamia during the time he was expected to run things in Cilicia; to name just some prominent examples.

Now, someone must have done the Roman day to day business in these provinces: contracts to sign, buildings to maintain, roads to build, troops to supply and stuff like that. A good time for a legat to make a coin or two in bribes while his Praetor was adventuring elsewhere and the Senate far, far away.

Even so, that's still a big gamble to get a rich province where the governor might be pre-occupied with other things. And as quaestor you're not going to be able to squirrel away as big a slice of loot as the governor himself would do.

Towards the end of the Republic men on the political track were getting themselves massively into debt on the promise of higher office. Failing to win an election, and having their creditors call in the debts would literally ruin them. Holding games as aedile tended to be the biggest drain, since there was always the pressure to do something bigger and better than the last man to improve the strength of your brand reputation.

Just as an example, before he went to his province in Further Spain, Caesar had debts of some 33 million sesterces, and he can't have made much of a dent in that with his campaigns there. It was only as proconsul, with many captives sold as slaves and huge plunder that he was finally able to repay them.

That requires some serious confidence to get yourself that deeply into debt and have a viable strategy to get yourself out of it again.

[konny]

The cursus honorum was certainly not the best way to enrich yourself in Ancient Rome. It was a way to turn money into political power, what of course would in return fill the treasury with even more money, provided one was successfull.

On the lower levels there was a fair chance of making some money what always depended on the superior magistrate (the one with the Imperium). The Aedile was in fact the office with the "negative balance guarantee", and many ruined themselves on their way to Praetor.

Senators beeing in dire depth, despite the income requirements to become Senator in the first place, was in fact a serious problem. And no doubt that corruption was the logical consequence of it. Caesar is in fact a good example of the monetary pressure many newly elected Praetors had been in to plunder their provinces. That did certainly not add to the stability of the Republic. On the other end we have an example like Marius who really bought his way up to the top, as a nobody with nearly unlimited money.

Another example would be Pompeius, who was in no way member of the traditional ruling class of the Republic but used his money to field an army on his own expenses and hired this army to the Senate in return for political power, like becoming high commander in Spain without even beeing Senator, leave alone Praetor.