Is it me or the artillery is a little useless?

[bovi]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):

I agree artillery is too expensive in general. The diminishing number of pieces means reduced effectiveness, so I propose these changes, how about it?

3-span arrow projectors have eight projectors per unit, with attack of 13 and upkeep of 1900 1400.
3-cubit arrow projectors have four five projectors per unit, with attack of 21 and upkeep of 2500 1700.
30-mina stone projectors have two three projectors per unit, with the upkeep of 3200 2000.
1-talent stone projectors have one two projector per unit, with the upkeep of 4500 2500.

This might sound unreasonable but, why not go overboard like this and ask the beta testers if they are too strong and cheap now?

• 3-span arrow projectors have eight ten projectors per unit, with attack of 13 20, ammo of 350 500 and upkeep of 1900 1500.
• 3-cubit arrow projectors have four eight projectors per unit, with attack of 21 25, ammo of 280 400 and upkeep of 2500 2000.
• 30-mina stone projectors have two six projectors per unit, with attack of 40, ammo of 200 300 and upkeep of 3200 2500.
• 1-talent stone projectors have one four projector per unit, with attack of 60, ammo of 160 250 and upkeep of 4500 3000.

Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?

[Solus]

originaly, engineers disassembled their warmachine, and loaded them onto carts, to make sure that they would keep up with rest of the army. The machines were assembled agian, just before battle, and disassembled agian after. Don't know why siege was so slow in the vanilla version, but historically it wouldn't be that slow, but I think that the carts would have moved as fast as the average infantry man. Maybe you have to make the speed on the battle map of siege the same speed as infantry has, which makes everything more historically acurate.

[hoom]

I think that the carts would have moved as fast as the average infantry man

Only where there are good roads and/or flat & solid ground, but as soon as you move off road, carts = way slower than infantry.

[QuintusSertorius]

You can't forced-march pack animals for the lengths of time you can men without killing them, either.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You can't forced-march pack animals for the lengths of time you can men without killing them, either.

To be fair the army has a large baggage train anyway.

[QuintusSertorius]

To be fair the army has a large baggage train anyway.

Depends which army and which era, and indeed particular circumstances. Some were better at "travelling light" than others.

[alatar]

Still, I found it strange in a game, where a army is travelling wih supplies to make a fort and rams and seige towers, and food to let them travel to india from rome, that a cartwith a balista in it travels so slow.

[Olaf The Great]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):





Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?

Bovi, why are you so awesome?

[Megas Methuselah]

It's in his nature to be awesome.

[sgsandor]

I was going to experiment with the balancing of adding more artillery pieces to the units back in october, but didn't get the time back then and it was forgotten. They are indeed pretty much useless, but we didn't want to make changes that weren't tested either.

If you're interested in testing it out yourself, here's the suggestions that were thrown out but not implemented (keep in mind that the reduced upkeep also implies reduced recruitment cost; recruitment = 4 * upkeep):





Perhaps someone can apply these and post the files here, so people can test it and find a better balance?

if you can tell me what line in the export_descr_unit.txt i will be more then happy to beta test and get back withg an answer i know to change in the sp back up but i never fiddled with seige weapons before
thanks!

[tapanojum]

I just fought as KH against the Romans, defending a city I stole from them just north of Rome. I had the arrow artilery, the cubic arrow artilery, and the cheapest stone thrower.

The army ratio was 1:3. Right as the battle starts, the artilery is raining down on the enemy...awesome! As soon as they get within 50 feet of my army, I don't turn the artillery off in time. Needless to say...my commander gets a bigass Metal Arrow artilery through his back...thats the end of that =/

[bovi]

Taking a look at the code, these are the values to change for the various artillery:

;343
type             generic siege 3span
dictionary       generic_siege_3span      ; Triaspanai Katapeltai
category         siege
class            missile
voice_type       Light_1
soldier          greek_artillery_crew, 24, 8, 0.85 - - - number of pieces (possibly you'll need more men to man 10!)
engine           scorpion
attributes       sea_faring
formation        1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr    no
stat_sec         12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1 - - - Attack value and ammo number (possibly the ammo number is moot as it will take most of the battle to expend all that anyway)
stat_sec_attr    ap, bp
stat_pri_armour  1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental      7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000 - - - price, upkeep cost and retraining cost
ownership        romans_brutii, romans_julii, numidia, macedon, saba, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, seleucid, slave, pontus, armenia, gauls, britons, scythia, germans, dacia, spain

[oudysseos]

Wild idea/question-

Does artillery have to be recruited as such? Is there any way to modify the sap points, rams and siege towers that can only be built during a siege to include ballistae, onagers, etc.? (Sorry, don't have the greek name for three-span arrow projector memorized). There could be trait and/or ancillary related prereqs for family members- you have to have a praefectus fabrum trait (or whatever). As I see it, that way you don't have to transport all that very expensive high upkeep ineffective artillery, stringent enough traits would prevent spamming of whole stacks of flaming missile catapults and the whole system might just be a tad more realistic- most artillery was used most of the time during sieges, I believe. I'd like to use artillery myself from time to time but the current system makes it very unattractive.

[Flying Pig]

No, sorry, although you can edit out sap points. I actually like artillery for my (numerous) defensive actions, as a huge army at the gate, the Chaionion Agema holding it, and a TON of heavy fire coming frm inside is enough to scare anyone.

[oudysseos]

Too bad, I thought it was a good idea.


300 posts!

[Tabeia]

stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1 - - - Attack value and ammo number (possibly the ammo number is moot as it will take most of the battle to expend all that anyway)

I may be wrong, but I think the 350 value is not the amount of ammo, it's the maximun range of the scorpion
30 is the ammo value that should be changed

[Poulp']

I wish artillery could throw cows.
Since there were flaming pigs, flying cows are not that far fetched...

That's the kind of useless, place-taking unit that I'd take over HA anyday.

[bovi]

That's a good point Tabeia, I didn't check well enough but took Aymar's quote as good (saying to increase ammo from 350). It's very likely the range.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

Taking a look at the code, these are the values to change for the various artillery:

;343
type             generic siege 3span
...
category         siege
class            missile
...

What happens if you change these values? Is the speed linked to one of these?