questions of MP construction

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

version 8 multiplayer desync'd and has been put to one side,

medieval has many limits that are not readily apparent even WHEN you bump into them,
(like the maximum number of castles and upgrades that can exist in a buildprod file)


if you are certain you have made no end of file mistakes or corruptions
then
i am certain a hidden limit has been breached

i am wondering have you tried version 8_MP

without new models
(maybe there is a max limit to number of models in total)

with a limited number of clans (say 8 only - same as a viking campaign)
(maybe 8 in an expansion is the limit)

with a strictly restricted set of character names
(maybe too many Lord "spare hero slot" 's)
(maybe too many names in total)

with only original king/ character names, start leader stats, text files
(maybe a value has been broken and that throws out the games database)

[Puzz3D]

Models might be causing the multiplayer desync with version 8. The MTW models are not deleted by the install, and they should have been. So we have a ton of extra models defined that are not being used.

However, we also increased the resolution of the cavalry sprites and changed their animations. This might be introducing additional delay resulting in desync. We only see the desync on 2v2 and up, and not that much on 2v2. However, 3v3 and 4v4 battles will just about always desync.

We don't have more castles than MTW. In fact, we have less which is causing some battles in SP campaign that should be a castle battle to be played on the internal generic map which has no castle and is a serious problem that I want to correct.

The problem is not the number of clans. We use 16 clans in version 5, and never have desyncs. Version 5 is also using the old cavalry sprites and animations, and the MTW maps with MTW models. So, I suspect it's either the models or the cavalry sprites, but there are other changes between version 5 and version 8 so it could be something else. Unfortunately, right now we can't investigate this because it requires at least 6 players to test, and R'as is not available to help with making new installs at this time.

We did try MTW maps with version 8 and it still desynced, but I don't know if the extra Japanese models were still present in the model file. Many other things are different between version 5 and 8, so it's not going to be easy to identify the problem unless we get lucky.

Thanks for the comments and interest.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

dont have a copy of sam8_MP on hand, dont have a copy of MTW on hand at moment either.


From my earlier experience with modding mtw i can comfortably state that the castle battles getting resolved on a generic map is caused by the lack of matching maps for the castle_level/upgrade/terrain combination that the game is looking for

the game cannot look for an upgrade combo that is not listed in the buildprod file,

therefore there must be a class of terrain where a castle exists in the game,
but for which there is no defined map,

IIRC the map naming convention is terrain[mapnumber]_[castle-level]_[upgrade-level]


the hard solution is to trawl through the text file where the map terrain is defined and check that every Province terrain is defined correctly (no merged types eg NO hilly2flat etc) and that each named province type has a full set of castle maps (levels and upgrades).
(minimises the number of maps)


the easier solution is to simply list all possible terain combo's and
list the castle level/upgrade combo's (easy as look in prod file in samwars),
and then
copy/rename castle maps so you have at least one for each level/upgrade/terrain combination,
(a lot of maps, but a lot less time)

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

...The problem is not the number of clans. We use 16 clans in version 5, and never have desyncs.

suspect eliminated

Version 5 is also using the old cavalry sprites and animations, and the MTW maps with MTW models. So, I suspect it's either the models or the cavalry sprites, but there are other changes between version 5 and version 8 so it could be something else. Unfortunately, right now we can't investigate this because it requires at least 6 players to test, and R'as is not available to help with making new installs at this time....

very informative, the path is clear,
i will shortly begin my investigations.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi TechnoMage,

would be nice if you would spot something that we haven't considered yet.
Here's a link to a thread where we've listed all symptoms and thoughts so far:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=69991

I think we've tested MP on very generic maps. Iirc CBR and I did some test on
an ironboard map without any models. (is that right CB?)
It seems to be related to animations. Number of clans doesn't seem to be an issue.
I think Pink & Musket has about 200 units, so the number of units isn't a problem either.
Two cavalry units use the same mount which isn't exactly a mount but just different phases of the animation. But again, cegorach is using something similar in P&M and it works in MP.
We had to stop testing at some point because of lack of time.
Personally I'd love being able to play beta_8 MP because of the number of clans available, change in colours, change of map textures, models etc. We've put a lot of work into it and it's frustrating not being able to use it properly.

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

from your deductions it really is looking like unit animations

do you have a test configuration setup already?

i can operate 3 PC's simultaneous to test (i have 3 MTW-VI license's here) IF someone can tell me wether or not 3 systems can connect to a host and run the game through a netgear DG834 (wireless + 4x10/100)

[R'as al Ghul]

3 systems, 3 licenses = 3 nicknames and IP adresses = yes that should work.....
Maybe a bit of a hassle to set up the portforwarding, though.
Just try it, you seem to be tech savvy enough.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

multiple external IP numbers? (single internet connection here)
is there a way around that?
can mtw use different ports?
can they be set on the local machine?
(has no-one written a fakeserver yet?)

aalso direct from gamespy help
(seems to indicate that you could use different ports!!)

What ports does GameSpy Arcade use?
If you are behind a firewall/proxy and are able to change its settings, Arcade needs the following TCP ports open in order to function:

· 6667 (IRC)
· 3783 (Voice Chat Port)
· 27900 (Master Server UDP Heartbeat)
· 28900 (Master Server List Request)
· 29900 (GP Connection Manager)
· 29901 (GP Search Manager)
· 13139 (Custom UDP Pings)
· 6515 (Dplay UDP)
· 6500 (Query Port)

Again, these are TCP unless otherwise specified and are bidirectional.

University Internet connections - Universities usually protect their networks with firewalls. In most cases these cannot be opened by you the user. You'll have to consult a technician at your University to see if a workaround is possible. It might be necessary to open more ports in order to run certain games. Also, please note that this is a list of recommended ports. It does not mean that your particular firewall will be easy to configure. Please consult your firewall/proxy manufacturer for detailed instructions. In reality, getting Arcade to work on certain restrictive networks may even be a little harder than opening these ports. DirectPlay games in all likelihood will not launch properly at all.

i have also seen a report here on the org where the player failed to allow the specific ports that mtw and mtwvi used,
yet was still able to play and host,
so maybe mtw is not "strict" as well,


seems to me all that needs be done is define/assign a range of ports "near" the ones gamespy and vi want for each individual machine,
then LOCALLY close the ranges that the other machines will use,
then set the internal ip's for each machine and (on the router) port forward each range for each machine...
?

[R'as al Ghul]

Can you disable the firewall of your router and forward all ports?
That way the IP's of the machines behind the router should be visible on the net with different IPs.
I'd recommend to use a personal firewall on each machine, like Sygate, and allow the game to access the network.
CA has written MTW in a way that fakeservers, like for STW, are impossible or very hard to set up.
The gameserver adress of gamespy seems to be hardcoded and is not read from a txt file, although such a txt file exists. They didn't want people being able to use fakeservers, like the Shogun one.
If gamespy turns off the server in the future the only way to play will be Hamachi.
Which, by the way, could be a solution to what you're planning, because it sets up a VPN and tunnels through everything. You can read it up on the net.

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

reading about Hamachi, will that connect to the arcade?

any fancy setting needed? (rome and m2tw require some fancy footwork)

setting up trashable drives, so i can, if needed, be "exposed" with little "cost".
I can have 3 systems up and running with VI, all i need to do is get them connected to gamespy/host...

do you have a version that we can test and try to find the desync cause?

[R'as al Ghul]

When you set up Hamachi you have to use the LAN MP option of the game.
No fancy settings needed.
Maybe you could just start with the regular beta_8 at first.

Then there's a version in this folder: http://www.mizus.com/Ras/temp/
called stws.rar which CBR and I used for testing.
There are three other archives in that folder called step1 - step3.
To be honest I can't remember exactly what the different steps do without checking out my saved versions first.
(I'll do that later, have to do other stuff first)
We started with the install of stws.rar on a vanilla MTW install and tried that, then the three steps add new animation files each time and have to be installed/extracted on the test version.(always main game folder as target) That way we wanted to find out which animation file is causing the trouble.
One step is adding a new NoDachi, one cavalry, etc.
The downloads aren't that big so just give it a go.

Cheers,

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

if we use hamachi to emulate a lan, then we dont need CD keys? (and i dont need to play with port forward )
I have 3 live systems here, plus 3 more assembled (warm storage).

This coming weekend I could set them up,
4 would be optimal with #'s 5 & 6 available

if we are going to hamchi tell me asap, so i have time to warm them up, install hamachi, VI and the mod
(and create a network)
(and tell me GMT times too, alarms to set...)

PS - whats the password to the rar?

[R'as al Ghul]

Ah, my mistake.
Will PM you to explain.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

so far i am unable to connect (via hamachi) to a game hosted locally (between 2 PC's),
need an offsite host to test against.

also R'as is unavailable this weekend,
any volunteers?

[Puzz3D]

Since you have 3 machines you could try a standard 3 player LAN game or 4 player game if you have 4 machines, and see if beta 8 desyncs. If it does, that would be a test bed for tracking down the problem.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

I have 3 live,
1 other live but on holidays (it won a free trip to vegas),
3 warm (ready to run, o/s installed and all equip. avail.),
3 non compos mentis (no ram for them - o/s & equip. avail. and installed),
otherwise i'd run an 8x lan to test.

will 6 machine/players desync??

and if i wanted to allow one/several of you to hamachi in, then exactly which configuration would i need to run?

- Hamachi on best machine and allow you to tunnel in?

- or hamachi on all mine and tunnel into my own lan??
(which would be deathly slow, sending and recieving my own traffic...)

- or hamachi all mine and tunnel into your lan?
(again my wan link would be busybusybusy)

quite happy to run a solo "sixer" lan If you think that will desync, will NOT have time to do that for approx 20 hours

[Puzz3D]

quite happy to run a solo "sixer" lan If you think that will desync, will NOT have time to do that for approx 20 hours

As I recall, 6 player beta 8 battles nearly always desynced when playing over the internet. I don't know if they will desync when played on a LAN. Delay can cause a desync because the host machine only waits a certain amount of time for a response from the other machines in the battle before it considers a machine to be out of sync. Since there is less delay on a LAN it may very well be that you won't see a desync, but delay isn't the only possible cause of a desync. If you don't get any desync on a LAN, we can assume that delay is the cause of desync when playing over the internet. If you do see a desync on the LAN, we can assume that a calculation is giving a different result on the host machine than on the machine that desyncs. In this case, it would be important to note the cpu type of the host machine and the machine that dropped. MTW v1.0 games would desync when the machines had different types of cpu (Intel vs AMD). We may already have eliminated the cpu as the possible cause by observing desync between machines of the same cpu type, but I can't remember.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

all intel, 2=p4 3k ht, 3=p4 ((forgot- not live yet), but no ht), 1=PentiumD, so nothing superfast

i will start at MP5 - If I get to MP8 and still get no desyncs then will go back to MP5 and increase detail settings until i can cause sufficient local lag, then i will run through the three incremental versions R'as has supplied.

[Puzz3D]

Beta 5 doesn't have a desync problem, but you may want to run it just to be sure it works with your configuration. I was thinking of starting with beta 8 just to see if it desyncs with your configuration. If it doesn't, then we can't use your LAN for debugging this problem.

The best way to do the installs it to install MTW/VI, make a copy of it and install the mod on the copy. You can then copy the modded version to the other machines. This way you only have to install MTW/VI once and make copies of that each time you want to install a different version of the mod. There is no way to uninstall the mod, and the mod can only be successfully installed on an unmodded version of MTW/VI.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

if beta 8 does not desync on 6 boxes then i will have #7 back on monday and can downsize the ram on 4/5&6 to bring a non compos box online as well.
i fully expect to see a desync on 6 boxes,

(it is faster to install the mod on all boxes than to copy installs of mtw across the lan)
what i have done is clone the installed copy
so that i have a base copy, a backup base copy, a beta 5 copy, a beta 8 copy and the three test increments that R'as has provided.
2 boxes complete, 4 to be done late today.

[Puzz3D]

Ok great! We were getting desyncs with beta 8 in large battles shortly after the the battle started before any units were engaged, but after armies were moving as I recall. However, it wasn't always like that. Sometimes the battle would progress beyond engagement before it desynced.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

progress report
3 boxes complete, 1 box 40 minutes from complete (backing up image of built drive to external hdd now)
2 more boxes will be online overnight,

beta8 on 3 boxes, 2xP4 1xPentiumD , LAN, ping <50 = ALWAYS desynced, always.
(as a note of interest, the PentiumD always desynced, never the P4's)

beta5 on 3 boxes, 2xP4 1xPentiumD , LAN, ping <50 = all good

5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 = all good (3 boxes - if still good on 6 boxes then those increments can be added to the mix)

5.1 adds new flags and updated samarchers,
5.2 adds the new warrior monks,
5.3 adds new naginata, ashi, yarisam and nodachi.

if all 5.x variants test good on 6 boxes then i will add custom0 and custom9 to the mix = (thats the cavalry)


more incremental buildups,

Puzz - have you got
1. the new models in a pack? (with new text files adding models ONLY) (or even just the text, i can add to the required main text files)

2. the new maps and tiles in a pack (adding any entries need) (again a copy of the text entries will do and i can add into main text files myself)


what else was added to beta5 to make it beta8??

[Puzz3D]

These rar's have the necessary directory structure to unzip into the main game folder. The models pack has all the necessary files lbm, txt, etc. The maps_textures_stats pack has those three things which can be added separately. We did run some online tests that eliminated the textures from the cause of the desync, but that could be repeated to be sure. I don't think the textures are causing the problem. The unit prod file is much smaller than the one used in beta5 because we removed all the mtw/vi units. I don't see how problems in this file could cause a desync, but they can cause a crash.

SWbeta8_models.rar

SWbeta8_maps_textures_stats.rar

[R'as al Ghul]

if all 5.x variants test good on 6 boxes then i will add custom0 and custom9 to the mix = (thats the cavalry)

Just a quick reminder,
adding the cavalry to beta_5 to achieve beta_8 status is not done by a simple overwriting
of the custom folders 0 and 9. We've used at least one other folder and it requires a change in the unit_prod file, too, to link the animations with the units.
I'll post some details later. You could also check out the beta_8 unit_prod by yourself and look at which
unit animation folders are linked with which unit.

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

thanks for that r'as,
copying the entire texture folder from 8 to 5.3 is what i have just done, (ver5.5)
now i will copy the unit prod and make a beta 5 startpos file point at the unit prod

incidentally, beta8 has far more clans than beta5, beta5 has 15,
and i mentioned early on that i was worried maybe an expansion mod can only have 15 plus rebels.
determining that is a long way off yet,
i want to get animations, maps, terrain, models and sounds eliminated from the list of suspects first.

HOW DID you get japanese terrain and architecture to show in MP selection please.

[R'as al Ghul]

HOW DID you get japanese terrain and architecture to show in MP selection please.

By modding one of the .txt files in Loc/Eng/ where the terrain types are listed.
I have replaced Lush with the Japanese textures and since beta_8 is intended to be only used for Samurai Warlords, no vanilla game, I just replaced the Lush string in that file. That way, when hosting MP games, it's easier for people to select the intended terrain for the map. We've done some maps especially for that terrain and they would look odd when using arid or something else.

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

when i use Beta5 mod (unit/build/start) with the textures folder from 8 = works 100&#37;

when i tried the MP11_unit file I was victim of unknow factions messages,
so i removed all factions other than 9 to 24,

but i have not the knowledge to remove the need for the MP11_build file,

i want to use beta5 startpos, with MP11_unit (with extra factions removed) and with STW_10_build - anyone got/can make please?


if the animation files from beta8 work in beta5, and the only difference is the actions pointers, and using the dervish folder for ninja,
then i should be able to use the beta8 mp unit prod (minus extra factions) with no crashes, but it is linked to the mp11 build prod and using both i get desyncs, always.


I want to be able to use the STW_MP11_unit_prod file with STW_10_build_prod and beta5 startpos.
Then we can eliminate the unit animations (and controls) entirely from the problem.

[R'as al Ghul]

but i have not the knowledge to remove the need for the MP11_build file,

i want to use beta5 startpos, with MP11_unit (with extra factions removed) and with STW_10_build - anyone got/can make please?
[..]
I want to be able to use the STW_MP11_unit_prod file with STW_10_build_prod and beta5 startpos.
Then we can eliminate the unit animations (and controls) entirely from the problem.

A quick idea:
1. the 10_build_prod is not listed in the startpos as build file.
or
2. the game is bitchy about the numbers, both unit and build file have to have the same number in the file name.

R'as

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

that method also desynced,

what changed with the cavalry that required all the changes in action pages?

and what exactly got changed in the unit file (other than stats of course)?

(going to recreate from ground up where i am up to now, then run a second set of desync tests before i go any further)
(ie make a custom build)
(i want to make sure i have not introduced an error myself)

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

say R'as - the reason i ask about all the changes to the actions pages for the cav is the beta5 and beta8 download cavalry bifs are the same, identical.
(just downloaded readbif)

i am sure i saw screenshots from barocca showing cav archers running with bows, and with quivers on their saddles,
why did the new cav bifs not make it into the mod?