Most overrated unit

[m52nickerson]

Chivalric Knights are very good, but there are other cheaper calvary that can charge the flanks and break a line.

Polish retainers, Mounted sergeants - also have a charge of 8, plus much better stamina so they can be used more.

You can go through a campaign without them, and after a few battles will not miss them.

[Roark]

Stamina, dude?

[Jxrc]

Hate to say this but CMA would have to be my choice.
Unit looks cool and all but that the one I can easily do without.

[caravel]

Chivalric Knights are very good, but there are other cheaper calvary that can charge the flanks and break a line.

Polish retainers, Mounted sergeants - also have a charge of 8, plus much better stamina so they can be used more.

You can go through a campaign without them, and after a few battles will not miss them.

CFK are statistically superior to the above and there is no "stamina" stat in MTW. Mounted Sergeants are certainly not any substitute for CFK either and polish retainers are starting to look average alongside CFK:

CFK:

Elite
Charge 8
Melee 5
Defense 5
Armour 7
Honour 8


PR:

Elite
Charge 8
Melee 3
Defense 5
Armour 5
Honour 6


MoS:

Non-elite
Charge 8
Melee 2
Defense 2
Armour 3
Honour 2

Mounted Sergeants are ok for mopping up routers or charging weaker units in the flank. Polish retainers are great if you're the Poles, but CFK still have my vote, apart from when in the desert.

[m52nickerson]

Maybe it is just me but it seems that Retainers can run around the field for a longer time then CFK.

My point was all the units have the same charge rating. So if you are mainly using your calvary mainly to sweep around the flanks and charge the rear, the cheaper units will do nearly as good of job.

Now if you plan on having your calvary hack it out with other units CFK will do a better job.

[Vider]

These threads seem to be focusing attacking strength vs. build requirements, but I would tend to answer from a more personal perspective.

I usually do overrate Chivalric Knights. By that I mean I think they can do too much and end up losing a large number of knights when better tactics would have shifted those losses to cheaper units like spearmen.

Also, I tend to overrate Jinetes when the AI has control. Used properly (player controlled) they can be a great unit, but I've always hated facing the Spanish. But more recently I've handled AI Jinetes surprisingly easily.

Both things reflect more my growth as a player than inherent characteristics of a unit, but really the value of a unit is mostly in how you use it.

[Brandy Blue]

In my opinion the most overrated units are the uber units (gothic knights, lancers, Janissaries, Hashasin,etc). I have the usual complaint. By the time I'm teched up to them, victory is already inevitable. XL seems to help with that problem if you start in the late period. As the Hospitaliers I used my Hosp knights a reasonable amount. But there are many factions I have not played on late XL so I don't know if it always helps.

[Heidrek]

Chivalric FOOT Knights I love. Perfect anti cavalry unit abut double as a tough general unfantry unit as well.

Here's the thing about Chivalric Knights, while they are a strong unit - no doubt, I mainly use cavalry to break pinned units and start a rout or chase down skirmishers. CK's do this extremely well, but most of the time, if a CK charge would break a unit, a Feudal Knight or even Mounted Sergeant charge would do the same thing.

CK's are better at standing and fighting once the charge has stopped, but thats NOT what I want my cavalry to do. Once they get into a Melee, they start taking losses and lose their mobility.

A charge of Mounted Sergeants in Wedge formation has an attack value of 13 (8 charge, 2 attack, +3 attack and -3 defense thanks to Wedge). A Charge of CK's in normal close formation has the same strength, 13. Chivalric Knights cost about 4 time as much to build and upkeep, require a great deal more investment in infrastructure and time, and can usually only be trained in a couple of your provinces at best.

Also, you can't get Valour +1 versions by building a Master Horse Breeder, whereas even a Keep level province can build you Val +1 Mounted Sergeants. MS are available right from the start, cheap to build, and with an armour and/or weapons upgrade or two and +1 valour they can not only charge well, but stand and fight as well.

CK's can run down an infantry unit in the field head on, sure and they'll probably break it fairy quickly unless it's a Spear unit, but it will take losses doing so, and more than likely, while your knights are fighting it out, other enemy units will join the fight and hammer your knights. You might even lose them because of this. If you wait until the battle is joined, then use them to break an engaged unit, thats fine, but you could probably get the same result from a cheaper more easily produced Cavalry unit.

If I want heavy cavalry, I'll most likely use Feudal Knights, simply because the have the same charge and only 1 less attack. their Defense and Armour are good as well, but they are much easier to produce - available at castle level.

Better yet, I'll find an Iron province, and start producing Weapon and Armour upgraded MS with +1 valour. Consider what a Val +1, weapon +1 armour +2 MS Looks like:

Charge 8
Attack:4
Defense: 3
Armour: 5
Morale: 6

Thats pretty tight for a unit that only costs 175. Given that I'll need to get to Castle level to build the weaponsmith though I may as well tech up to Feudal Knights and build one or two of those as well.

CK's are fierce, but most of the time I could achieve the same result much cheaper and with less effort. And I love sending a Mounted Crossbows unit to Engage CK's. The CK's never catch them and the xbows just sit there picking them off or lead them back to your line where your missile troops shred that armour and nail them to the ground

[Caliburn]

Gendarmes, Gothic Knights and Lancers are redundant in my opinion, and they have very steep requirements. Gothic Sergeants are pretty redundant too, I've never managed to use them in a campaign.

I'd use Chivalric Knights only as infantry. Cavalry tactics can be perilous, and it's more expensive to lose Chivalric Knights to a horde of camels than a unit of Steppe Cavalry for example. Even Mounted Sergeants are good enough for the basic uses of cavalry. If I want super heavy cavalry, I'll use High Royal Knights... The same stats, but a lot more tactical flexibility (smaller unit size).

Feudal Knights seem even worse, as you can't dismount them in regular battles, they're somewhat expensive, and their upkeep is quite steep (steeper then Chivalric Knights if I recall correctly...). Of course, in Early, they're a strong anti-cavalry unit, as anti-cavalry infantry is weaker than in High, so they actually serve a purpose.

Halberdiers seem to work OK, but I'd use them with Chivalric Sergeants. They kill horses and spearmen, so I'll put them in the middle of the formation, sometimes at the flanks too. Chivalric Foot Knights are a heavy infantry reserve that can plug the gaps and kill the strongest enemies when need be.

I agree with Pikemen - too weak for such heavy requirements. If they were spammable (i.e. available from low tech provinces), they would work better. They'd be a decent defensive/garrison unit providing cavalry cover for the high kill-rate units, i.e. missile troops, with a decent kill potential and high casualty rate. I'd rather kill Pikemen than Slav Warriors and Spanish Javelinmen on Late...


Note: I've removed Armour and Weapon upgrades from the game, so the dynamics might be a bit different.

Edit: Sorry for repeating what others, esp. Heidrek just said.