All that matters is that a black man can actually run for president. It's still intact, don't think that would be possible here.
Re: Obama the White Man
All that matters is that a black man can actually run for president. It's still intact, don't think that would be possible here.
Re: Obama the White Man
Edit: Fragony, I agree. I hear a lot of people here (ie., student-infested Leiden) who seem to take the reluctance to vote for Obama among many Americans as some sort of proof of inherent racism of some kind. But really, I don't see the Dutch voting a member of an ethnic minority into Het Torentje anytime soon. And considering how immature the Dutch approach to actually integrating said minorities into this state, this nation, is at the moment that's probably for the best.
But that belongs more in Adrian's topic. Really must type something coherent for that soon.
Looked like a polite way for BG to express the height his opinion of the information Panzer linked to.Originally Posted by Xiahou
Last edited by Geoffrey S; 06-12-2008 at 20:48.
"The facts of history cannot be purely objective, since they become facts of history only in virtue of the significance attached to them by the historian." E.H. Carr
Re: Obama the White Man
Even if these differences in IQ exist, which I will not pass judgement on here, they are, in my opinion, irrelevant.
Re: Obama the White Man
Obama is a rich white man.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Einstein
Re: Obama the White Man
You've got quite a bit of free time on your hands, don't you? The joke's on you though, unfortunately, as the test results are well documented.
Utility is always a questionable arguement. In any event, importance is in the eye of the beholder.
My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.
The simple mentioning of some basic IQ measurements sends certain people into fits. Accusations of racism, dismissal of documented science, etc. fly. Its devious, but oh so funny.
You may want to look at the studies that compare children of the same socioeconomic backgrounds though. ;)
Calm down Mr. Ghost. I have no love of religion so you may want to withdraw and strike from a different angle. Good try though.Hey, PJ lookee here. More really top-grade science that proves those who believe in God are stupider than atheists. IQ tests prove it, you see.
As an on-topic example with which you will surely agree, we can use the Reverend Wright; who is both Christian and black, and therefore so dumb the thesis must be true for all cases.
Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 06-12-2008 at 22:43.
Re: Obama the White Man
Eh?
"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"
"The English are a strange people....They came here in the morning, looked at the wall, walked over it, killed the garrison and returned to breakfast. What can withstand them?"
Re: Obama the White Man
So you were trolling
Re: Obama the White Man
There's a word for that. It's called trolling.My opinion is about as important as these IQ test results. I simply enjoy seeing people's reactions when this subject is brought up, especially from those who enjoy mocking people who believe in intelligent design. Suddenly science doesn't agree with their ideology.
Not really something to boast about, PJ
Re: Obama the White Man
Hey Panzer its the same angle , disputed findings from IQ tests by scientistsCalm down Mr. Ghost. I have no love of religion so you may want to withdraw and strike from a different angle.
Re : Re: Obama the White Man
Please do! In a nutshell, in the above quote you have exposed much of what's so unbearably wrong with anti-Americanism - all the thick ignorance of Europeans who see fit to lecture American over subjects in which the US in reality owns Europe.
I had a clear preference for Clinton. As such, I do not applaude Obama's candidacy. However, I do think it is simply marvellous that a minority candidate has a real shot at the presidency. America owns.
Re: Obama the White Man
It's up there
Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
Re: Obama the White Man
Not only does that give a bad name to the .ORG by having the link to this site up there, but it completely ignores his actual argument.It's up there
Smooth.
Last edited by Evil_Maniac From Mars; 06-13-2008 at 01:57.
Re: Obama the White Man
CountArach, Ironside and other did a great job at pointing out that the study you are referring to is a bunch of crap. That and if you knew anything about science you would understand that one study does not evidence make.
...and it took about a minute to submit your response.
Correct, intelligent people do not find race important, only fools do.
Again if you knew anything about science you would understand that Intelligent Design is not science. Link-n-Learn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
That is because uninformed people spewing crap tends to get people upset.
No it gives PanzerJaeger a bad name. There is also a link back to the thread.Not only does that give a bad name to the .ORG by having the link to this site up there, but it completely ignores his actual argument.
Smooth.
....then again if it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, PanzerJaeger's comment is racist.
Now I have to go for a minute and see your quote on RSTDT.
Oh and PanzerJaeger your post about Obama's lies found here https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=117
Snopes disagrees with you!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp
Last edited by m52nickerson; 06-13-2008 at 02:20.
Re: Obama the White Man
It's really still quite immature in my humble opinion, but I'll leave it be.
Re: Obama the White Man
Actually, I would suggest that the war in Iraq was far more "just" than it has been (at least until recently) well managed. Nor do I believe that Iraqi oil, which is now pumping at nearly pre Iraqi Freedom levels, is vital difference. The weak US dollar accounts for a good slice of the recent cost increase per barrel, as does the increased demand for oil worldwide. The single biggest factor, however, is OPEC. Since 1973, world population has increase by more than a third, and oil consumption has gone up even faster (roughly 50%). While most other producers are pumping nearly 50% more oil than 35 years ago, OPEC is pumping less than 5% more. As a semi-monopoly, they get to smile and _____ us, no doubt while kindly offering to use petroleum jelly to ease things.
I'm not sure that a US pullback, "Iraqization," will truly have them stepping up to the bar the way they'd need to. With us taking lumps for them and providing stability (which we are, at last, with better resources and focus) they may actually develop something approaching stability using a three-state with "federal" umbrella approach -- which is the way it is trending. Without the USA, I think you'd see a splintering (and possibly out-and-out civil war). Of course, critics of everything Bush still presume that such a civil conflict was and is the only possible result and view the last 18 months as only a temporary fig-leafing of the problem.
Ahh...the sacred myth of the almighty FDR. An effective war leader he was. His decision to employ the navy in the Atlantic in support of England in early 1941 helped turn the tide in the Battle of the Atlantic and his pressure on Japan virtually guaranteed a U.S.-Japanese conflict. He and Churchill must both have done a jig when Hitler was idiotic enough to declare war and let them do their "Germany First" plan as they desired. In many ways it was a good decision. Roosevelt feared a Nazi-dominated Europe on many levels -- and rightly so.
Economically, the New Deal had far less impact than it did psychologically -- which is not unimportant, I admit -- the world economy had actually hit its bottom just prior to FDR taking office and was already beginning the slow climb back. FDR's "miracle" was simple Keynesianism and many of his regulatory efforts were rolled back in the 1970's and 1980's as too restrictive of the economy. World War II ended the Great Depression by removing a lot of the surplus workforce from existence while encouraging a resurgence of trade.
That FDR was popular is undoubtable. That he was a powerful leader who re-shaped the USA is beyond question. A lot of the impact thereof is very much debatable.
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
Re: Obama the White Man
It's whatever you want it to be and less.
I was only trying to point out that there's a lot of silly science out there on the subject of IQ and correlations to assorted groups that people want to belittle.
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: Obama the White Man
Ah Mr. Nickerson, you remind me so much of myself about four years ago. You've convinced yourself that you know how the world should be, and those that disagree with you are not simply wrong, but evil. Therefore, in your mind you are completely justified in being such a.. what’s a polite term for?
Its ok though. If you stick around long enough, you may well develop a certain respect, even camaraderie, with even those whose worldviews are completely opposite of your own.
As to your zingers...
You may have missed it, but as others have pointed out, my posting in this thread was more of a game I've been playing with myself for my own personal amusement, or in other words, trolling. Its a nasty habit and I do apologize, but hopefully it has opened some people's eyes.
What I posted was not the result of one study, but an amalgamation of countless studies conducted over multiple decades. Black people consistently score lower on average than white people, even when care is taken to avoid bias and match socioeconomic conditions. In fact, the difference grows as the subject's respective socioeconomic situation increases.
The real question, as I said before, is: why does this occur? Is it genetic? Is it environmental? And more importantly, does it matter? Instead of addressing these questions, you've lashed out at myself, and the information itself.
When you begin to dismiss valid scientific research in order to preserve your own ideology, you may want to have a long look in the mirror. How different are you from those Intelligent Designers?
Intelligent people learn to read between the lines.Correct, intelligent people do not find race important, only fools do.
In your zealous fervor, you've failed to take a hint - or even read what I've written.Again if you knew anything about science you would understand that Intelligent Design is not science. Link-n-Learn
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
You see, you have created this archetype of a bible-thumping, right wing, bigot from Kansas in your head without any real knowledge of where I stand. Try agnostic fascist with a distinct admiration for the Jewish people and Israel. Does that blow your mind?
The irony of using Wiki as a source is not lost on me.
Ah, but what I posted were documented IQ test results reflecting years of research. Who is uninformed here?That is because uninformed people spewing crap tends to get people upset.
My comment was simply data.. information without any opinion attached. The value of that information is debatable, but the purpose of posting it was to illicit a certain response. Thus far, you've demonstrated exactly what I intended to show; hook, line, and sinker.....then again if it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, PanzerJaeger's comment is racist.
The anger is almost tangible. I love it.Oh and PanzerJaeger your post about Obama's lies found here https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=117
Snopes disagrees with you!
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp
Put down your sword and read my post again. Did I write that? Thanks for the information, though.
Last edited by KukriKhan; 06-13-2008 at 13:32.
Re: Obama the White Man
Kinda funny how those who get so worked up over things like this insist on viewing IQ as a degree of worthyness, usually smart people. If you have a lower IQ you aren't any less a person.
Re: Obama the White Man
On the contrary, there is a lot of silly, uninformed and deeply biased opposition against IQ research. I remember that in the run-up to the publication of The Bell Curve in 1994, the book got six firmly negative reviews in major American media (I recall Time and The Washington Post being among them) from prominent Psychologists - none of whom had read the book, because it wasn't out yet and they based themselves on hearsay about its contents. A stark example of the dogged commitment of established journalism and academic Psychology to their own prejudice and anti-scientific bias.
Even today I keep reading academic summaries and reviews of The Bell Curve from Psychologists who have not read the book, and I know because I am one of the very few Dutch journalists who have actually read it. This is one of the reason why I have no respect whatsoever for modern Psychology as a profession or a science, and very little for journalism as a serious profession. And if a Wiki site on IQ is held to be 'controversial' by some Wiki contributors I really couldn't care less.
Last edited by Adrian II; 06-13-2008 at 09:07.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: Obama the White Man
Man how did you manage to actually read that it's so dry [insert sleeping smily]
Re: Obama the White Man
yall are foucused on the forrest when you should really be concerend about single trees.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
Re: Obama the White Man
Took me a whole week. And I consulted a statistician on the graphs, particularly the factor analysis. The typical sign of a non-reader who passes judgment on this book it that he/she assumes it is about the question whether IQ is hereditary. It is not. It is about the social consequences of IQ differences, and that makes it fascinating.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: Obama the White Man
lol sounds like it's really a pc adapt's dream come true then. First read then cry or you might find yourselve riding against the wrong legs
silly people
Re : Obama the White Man
Little talk of Obama anymore in this thread. Might as well chime in on the off-topic discussion then.
I am not sure I share Panzer's political views or intentions with this subject, but he is neither a fool nor uninformed about this subject. Ridicule and outrage are not going to cut it. He is quite right in most of his assertions.
Man, like all other species, is subject to evolutionary laws. The idea that the human mind is somehow exempt from evolutionary impulses is pseudo-science. A socially convenient taboo. Indeed, the comparison with Intelligent Design believers was well chosen.
I think the idea that cognitive abilities are evenly spread throughout all groups of humans is completely at odds with everything we know about evolution and the history of the human species.
Panzer linked to inductive studies to prove his point. That is, studies where people are defined into groups and tested for IQs. This brings about a lot of problems, for a start, race and IQ are contentious concepts. Plus, more worryingly, both have been subjected to a heavily politicized scientific history, rife with pseudo-science. But even though Panzer's psychological studies are problematic, they are not without merit.
There is also a less politicised, more straightforward biological approach. By deductive reasoning, groups of humans have lived in varying degrees of isolation for varying amounts of time. Much is unclear about human palaeology, but what is clear is that the isolation and amount of time has been sufficient for humans to evolve into widely varying groups. Susceptibility to diseases, facial features, body types - in all aspects human groups have become biologically adapted to varying environments. None of these studies are ever disputed.
The brain, too, is simply an organ. Sucseptible to evolutionary impulses like all the other organs. The idea that evolutionary change of the human brain somehow stopped roughly 70 thousand years ago is preposterous. It is not science, it is not grounded in fact. It is rather grounded in the Christian concept of man as a created, unchangeable being, and, especially after WWII, in fear for social consequences, combined with a residu, a post-Christian concept of the human being and mind.
Cognitive abilities are at least partially heriditary. Whatever is heriditary is subjected to evolutionary impulses. Human groups have been subjected to different evolutionary impulses. Hence, the prediction is that varying human groups have varying cognitive abilities. A prediction, that seems to be confirmed by psychological studies.
No amount of PC, social constructs and definitions, clever attacks on psychological studies or politicised science is going to change this simple truth.
Re: Obama the White Man
Yes, PJ, you've learned how to indicate racism in a number of ways without actually verging into explicit statement. It's quite the little dance you do.
You're also becoming quite proficient at indicating disdain and arrogance. Between this and the obliquely-indicated racism, you're going to be quite a hit in polite society.
Why should it? Most extreme rightwing people in the U.S. are pro-Israel these days. It's not an original or unique position, and barely deserves comment. The fact that you manage to be a practicing fascist without being an anti-Semite is not terribly interesting, no matter how much you congratulate yourself.
For a guy who adopts such a superior attitude when responding to people who are justifiably angry at your realistic and convincing imitation of a racist, you really ought to know the difference between "elicit" and "illicit." And what kind of classy dude gloats about having trolled someone else into anger? What kind of contribution are you looking to make? "Look, ma, when I imitate a racist jerk, people get angry! Aren't I clever and educational?"
Then what the hell is wrong with you?
You posted 46 of those 50 lies in another thread. Are you suggesting you didn't, or are you engaging in your new favorite hobby, trolling and lying until people get angry at you? Lovely habit you have there.
Last edited by Lemur; 06-13-2008 at 13:03.
Re: Obama the White Man
The best thing, I think, is just the way some people respond to him. I love it when people pretend that the fact he is half Kenyan does not influence them. Of coarse it does, America having a black president would be an event comparable to the Reformation. I am not endorsing him, but for him to be elected would most definatley take the wind out of all America's and even the West's critics. You would have given a massive middle finger to all the prats who I share my uni with that think Amricans are all in some way racists imperialists, and all the rest like them across the world.
It would be great.
Unfortunatley I do not agree with selling the Iraqi people off short for the sake of saving money, but I am being idealistic there.
Sig by Durango
-Oscar WildeNow that the House of Commons is trying to become useful, it does a great deal of harm.
Re: Obama the White Man
We now have Social Groups, Friends Groups, and other social contact thingies. All very nice, but can't we just have a Boxing Ring for mad Orgahs? I'd like to bet on a Lemur-Panzer fight over twelve rounds..
Last edited by Adrian II; 06-13-2008 at 13:21.
The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott
Re: Obama the White Man
Sign me up, can I pick my opponent?
oh, 20.00 on Lemur as long as PJ cant use his firearms.
There are few things more annoying than some idiot who has never done anything trying to say definitively how something should be done.
Sua Sponte
Re: Obama the White Man
That, but also a major boost in confidence for the african people, one of ' them' (yes as in black) becomming the president of the most powerfull country in the world. A black president could definatily be a positive force in world affairs. Just because he's black, sure. But screw that really.
Re: Obama the White Man
PJ has a slight youth edge and also has those Popeye arms, if you've seen his frontroom pics. I'll take that action, Odin.
(Welcome back, too)
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