Save My KOTR Elector (Open to all)

**flyd** · 06-14-2008, 00:50

So, I decided to do my "count the number of times the elector was mentioned by name in the Diet" idea. It should be some indicator of how much of an effect that person had on the politics, but is fraught with inaccuracies, especially because people were often referred to by their last names alone, and "the kaiser" and "the chancellor" were common. Anyway, here is the list of the top thirty avatars based on save my elector, and included are also the major families (in italics). Hopefully, it will make AG feel better.

Arnold: 739
Jan: 462
Lothar: 391
Fritz: 382
Matthias: 352
Hans: 351
Siegfried: 332
Steffen: 329
Elberhard: 315
Henry: 312
Peter: 293
Leopold: 251
Salier: 234
Heinrich: 231
Hummel: 231
von Kastilien: 220
von Kassel: 202
Mandorf: 189
Ulrich: 165
von Hamburg: 142
Zirn: 132
von Mahren: 126
Becker: 125
von Saxony: 117
von Dassel: 107
Fredericus: 69
Wolfgang: 78
Karl: 58
Tancred: 44
Andreas: 43
Hugo: 38
Bresch: 33
Karolinger: 29
Ruppel: 28
Welf: 23
Hermann: 14

**flyd** · 06-14-2008, 01:09

Other interesting statistics:

Outremer: 893
Austria: 884
Swabia: 742
Bavaria: 711
Franconia: 588

Kaiser/Emperor: 2597
Duke: 2250
Chancellor: 1630
Count: 1386
Pope: 671
Charter: 526

Milan: 606 (could also refer to city)
France: 479
Venice: 459 (could also refer to city)
Poland: 427
Byzantium: 434
Russia: 280
Hungary: 228
Denmark: 210
Mongols: 143
England: 143
Sicily: 131
Egypt: 98
Turks: 36

Illuminati: 25

**Cecil XIX** · 06-14-2008, 01:27

Interesting stats, FLYdude.

Regarding subjectivity, that's inevitable. It's quite common for these contests to have odd results due to each voter picking a personal favorite. The results are still interesting however, and odd results can raise discussion even better than expected ones.

**Ramses II CP** · 06-14-2008, 01:34

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I don't think I want to know how that was done, but it's bloody impressive work. A quick glance through says (to me) that this data is heavily biased in favor of player activity, perhaps even more so than political importance. It's still very interesting information to have though.

**Privateerkev** · 06-14-2008, 02:04

Originally Posted by Ramses II CP

A quick glance through says (to me) that this data is heavily biased in favor of player activity, perhaps even more so than political importance.

In the case of Jan, I am quite certain it had to do with "player activity"...

**Ignoramus** · 06-14-2008, 02:41

Save Wolfgang Hummel (1)

**GeneralHankerchief** · 06-14-2008, 03:03

Basically, I tried to include every facet of potential points in my little system. Longevity and rank were (duly) rewarded, but if that character achieved neither then they would still have a chance to due well based on how memorable their shorter lives were. That's what the multiplier and "died in battle" bonuses were for. Take the example of Wolfgang Hummel. Ignoring the fact that he's been saved by Zim, it could be argued that he, while dying young and never going higher than Count, was more memorable than Gunther von Kastilien, a longtime Duke who lived into his sixties and had four important sons.

The rest of the points were pretty much rewards for activities the character took part in, whether it be crusades, Illuminati membership, etc. (although I should add a bonus for if the character was killed by another Elector) I awarded points for the character's creator's OOC involvement as well as their popularity in this.

While naturally the weighting of the points like so is subjective, I think that all the potential for points included in this cover every possible corner that can be covered and about as close to objective as one can get. At the very least, it is no more subjective than this. Not argumentative, I'm just adding my opinion.

Anyway, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how things turn out.

**Privateerkev** · 06-14-2008, 03:50

Just so someone doesn't have to search for a tally amongst all the statistics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Ramses II CP** · 06-14-2008, 04:17

Save Hummel. (2)

Yeah, I made a deal with Zim and even though he wasn't able to finish his part, I'm gonna do mine (Despite my contempt for how Hummel has got here!).

**flyd** · 06-14-2008, 04:20

I'm gonna save Jan von Hamburg (2) now, but someone should really save Elberhard.

**Zim** · 06-14-2008, 05:52

I don't think anyone is arguing that this game is more objective. It's not even really at the level of a popularity contest, since more active voters have had such a disproportionate influence on how things went.

It's just that coming up with a bunch of factors and weighting them according to how important a person considers each doesn't seem to me to approach objectivity very closely either.

It's a very fun exercise, no doubt, and I'd be very impressed by the amount of work that would go into using those criteria to rank different characters. I just don't think meaningful comparisons could be made that way when it comes to roughly equally well known characters.

For instance, both Jan von Hamburg and Matthias Steffen committed arguably character defining acts during the Cataclysm. Jan, a King of Outremer and character known for his extremely high chivalry, left the Levant to participate in the Swabian Civil War at the Battle of Bern. Matthias Steffen, on the other hand, stayed and held Outremer together for the rest of the game, despite overwhelming odds. Both were dramatic decisions with far reaching impacts, and I can't say which was more memorable, yet Matthias gets fewer points for his actions than Jan's modifier gives him for being in a Civil War battle.

There are lots of little things like this. Jan and Arnold were characters defined and remembered largely by their chivalry and dread, respectively, but get the same bonus that someone like my own Andreas gets for over five of one of those traits, even though he didn't really have time for his own high chivalry to come into play. Edmund Becker's "rebellion" never saw a battle, but was equally as tense to my mind as Wolfgang Hummel's, and the interaction between Becker and Arnold was one of the most memorable parts of the Cataclysm to me.

I guess to my mind it just seems like trying to rank, say famous poems, by deciding the use of metaphors adds 2 points while the use of similes adds 1, and using a difficult structure like a Sestina (did I get that right?

) adds a modifier of x2 while Rondels are x1.5. It could be a lot of fun (well, not in the case of ranking poems.

) and spark interesting discussions, and as such would definately be worth it if you're happy to do the work involved, but it wouldn't really be much more legitimate than, say, a silly game like this where people vote for their favorite Elector.

Not trying to be argumentative either. It's just that after many years of college, I've seen many people attempt to quantfiy things that really can't be.

Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief

Basically, I tried to include every facet of potential points in my little system. Longevity and rank were (duly) rewarded, but if that character achieved neither then they would still have a chance to due well based on how memorable their shorter lives were. That's what the multiplier and "died in battle" bonuses were for. Take the example of Wolfgang Hummel. Ignoring the fact that he's been saved by Zim, it could be argued that he, while dying young and never going higher than Count, was more memorable than Gunther von Kastilien, a longtime Duke who lived into his sixties and had four important sons.

The rest of the points were pretty much rewards for activities the character took part in, whether it be crusades, Illuminati membership, etc. (although I should add a bonus for if the character was killed by another Elector) I awarded points for the character's creator's OOC involvement as well as their popularity in this.

While naturally the weighting of the points like so is subjective, I think that all the potential for points included in this cover every possible corner that can be covered and about as close to objective as one can get. At the very least, it is no more subjective than this. Not argumentative, I'm just adding my opinion.

Anyway, yeah, it'll be interesting to see how things turn out.

**flyd** · 06-14-2008, 05:59

Zim, you're totally right with everything you said. You've always been right. You're right about everything, because you're super smart. I know you want to save Elberhard now that Hummel is gone.