Back On Track

[Tomisama]

Disclaimer: Please ignore the following complaint, as I feel sure that it is not as important to you as it is to me (being older and having less time left on this planet ).

If you have “found the problem with beta8 that desynced MP,and we fixed it”, why aren’t we playing it?

The beta 8 mad was complete at it’s original release, and with the desync fixed, it should be re-released again now!

And forgive the observation, but to my memory no one was ever interested in playing as, or against the Mongols. It defeats the whole concept of “true balance” available to all participants.

I appreciate the technical expertise, and would be the last person to want to discourage the pursuit of excellence. But we have been waiting “forever” for this version of the mod. The desync problem wasted many hours, and all but destroyed an active and growing community.

Please consider what I am saying, and re-release Beta 8 as a ‘8b’ (or something), and let’s get back to playing

[Puzz3D]

If you have “found the problem with beta8 that desynced MP,and we fixed it”, why aren’t we playing it?

Because the multiplayer gameplay in beta8 is exactly the same as in beta5, and putting together a new release is a lot of work.

[Jochi Khan]

And forgive the observation, but to my memory no one was ever interested in playing as, or against the Mongols. It defeats the whole concept of “true balance” available to all participants.

I take it Tomisama that you never witnessed Orda Khan and Jochi Khan fielding Mongol armies in MP?

It has always been a sore point with Orda that the Mongols, one of the most feared fighting armies, were never balanced to show this in TW.

[TosaInu]

Hello Tomisama,

The desync problem wasted many hours, and all but destroyed an active and growing community.

That's a sure thing. It was a nasty creepy bug that only popped up in larger MP battles.

Disclaimer: Please ignore the following complaint, as I feel sure that it is not as important to you as it is to me (being older and having less time left on this planet ).

I think no one really likes waiting.

If you have “found the problem with beta8 that desynced MP,and we fixed it”, why aren’t we playing it?

Have we found it actually and are we sure? Afaik, something is suspected and fixed.

And forgive the observation, but to my memory no one was ever interested in playing as, or against the Mongols. It defeats the whole concept of “true balance” available to all participants.

It wouldn't be great if this were made into a whole new version, as that yet again means that some will have it and other not, meaning that people can't play each other.

However, this can be made to be an add-on to the mod, in it's own era. Then haves and have nots can still play the SamWars battles together.

re-release Beta 8 as a ‘8b’ (or something), and let’s get back to playing

That would be very nice,many mods/maps have the same name, while it is a different version. More care should be taken with this.

The Mongol faction was a concern in STW WE, and attempts to fix it failed in the official patches. I think it's that what caused it to be abandoned by many. They can be fun and fair to play with though and the music is a nice bonus. The more capable VI engine should make it possible to balance it properly.

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

I used a Pentium4 as server, had a very slow hard drive, minimal ram and had the "server" working overtime during battles to try and CAUSE desync's. I also used maximum possible detail settings. (edit - on ALL 6 machines in my lan)

Once Puzz refined the unit prod file i went through all my tests on both the refined and original unit prod's, alternating between them, to maximise reliability of my testing.
I am confident that Puzz's refined unit prod has removed the "guaranteed" desync.


I believe that having one version for everybody will enable the mod to begin moving forward.

[barocca]

Phase One - Multiplayer

I have managed to re-edit the mongol and korean bifs from Shogun into medieval format,
i have also re-edited a number of the shogun bifs, and improved on aokubi's mod's as well.
finally several medieval bifs have been modded to suit the mod,

I am liasing with R'as to get the image file's, action and weapons pages to him

in short there will be samurai, rebels, monks and mongols galore.

i think one big mashup file of units, with people negotiating rules before the games begin,
will probably be a decent enough way to go?
we used to have limits on guns, max units of one type and so on many moons ago,
surely we can be trusted to do so now?

[Puzz3D]

i think one big mashup file of units, with people negotiating rules before the games begin,
will probably be a decent enough way to go?
we used to have limits on guns, max units of one type and so on many moons ago,
surely we can be trusted to do so now?

Rules were used because the game was unbalanced. I'm against unbalancing the game and compensating for that by using rules. It would ruin the Sengoku Period gameplay which we spent over 3 years refining.

[Togakure]

Rules were used because the game was unbalanced. I'm against unbalancing the game and compensating for that by using rules. It would ruin the Sengoku Period gameplay which we spent over 3 years refining.

Agreed. The balance of SamWars, eliminating the need for rules and preventing by design exploitive army composition, is one of the major attractions of the mod, imo. My two koku.

[barocca]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

[Jochi Khan]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

Here! Here! I couldn't agree more.

[Togakure]

then one era with shogun units,

and one with mongols and monks,

all other era's i would like deleted during the install process,


frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

Gameplay is never 100% balanced; neither Puzz nor I said anything about "100%." The balance of beta5 is exceptional. That has been accepted by many experienced players who have played it online at length.

I think it is a pipe dream to think that very many players will come and play this consistently, no matter how good it gets. Experienced players won't hang around and wait for the mod to be balanced. We've seen this already. They will come and check it out, and if it doesn't fly to their tastes, they will go. There are too many other fine choices out there on which to spend our leisure time.

Releasing a mod that has significant balance problems is a mistake.

[Puzz3D]

frankly given the number of players this mod has lost waiting for the desync to be diagnosed and fixed we cannot hang our hat on 100% balanced gameplay.

We use beta5 for MP and it works fine. Both beta5 and beta8 have exactly the same gameplay in MP, so we didn't loose anyone because of that.

what we need to do is attract as many players as we can and THEN start balancing.

I don't see why we have to offer a degraded gameplay when adding Mongols isn't going to bring a lot of players to multiplayer. That will attract players who want and unbalanced game, and the players who want a balanced game will leave.

[The Receptionist]

I am seeing lots of soapbox speeches,
but little productive discussion.

Q1 - is there anything basically wrong with the suggestions made in the Mongol Unit Mix thread regarding unit types?
(1a) - why are you NOT suggesting stats and capabilities for the various proposed units?

Q2 - Is there anything wrong with the "test" mongol units that were added by Technomage?
(2a) - what is wrong? (2b) how to fix?

Q3 - Are there any untis missing from Technomage's Mongols Line up?

Q4 - you afficiando's of the mod can surely be trusted to be honourable at the start of a game and declare "no mongols"?
(4a) if not, why not?

..now where did i park my saucer..

[R'as al Ghul]

In my opinion most players that have played Multiplayer in the last 6+ months more than once have done so because the gameplay is excellent and they like it the way it is. It's true that beta_8 desynced and that that was frustrating and put some people off. But honestly, I don't remember anybody who hasn't returned after we switched back to beta_5. On the contrary, the fact that beta_5 can be installed without making vanilla unplayable seems to be easier for people and after the switch back we had an increase in players for a few weeks.
I don't think anybody wants beta_8 to work more than I do because of the (subjective) graphical improvement and flair and the work we've put into it. So after we've some conclusive robust online (LAN is all good and fine and TMS effort highly appreciated) results I'd love to play beta_8 rather than beta_5 and I'm certain that those who play beta_5 now will switch again with us.
I think that all who play MP now enjoy the timeframe, the setting, the reduced number of units and the balanced gameplay resulting from that. If we introduce the Mongols to that mix we double the number of overall units and change the gameplay to something entirely different. I'm absolutely not against the Mongols and will cooperate with barocca to introduce them into the mod. However, I think we should have several timeframes or eras. One would be the long tested and popular Sengoku era that we play now in MP (Why should we get rid of it?) and the second one would be the era where Mongols fight against the Japanese.
This also makes perfect sense from a historical as well as single player perspective. The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols. The balancing of the Japanese and Mongol units will take some work and active playtesting, that can't be done on paper alone. Sure, we can and will come up with some starting stats (Orda has offered some stats) from where to take it and for SP it will be easier as units are modified by General *'s and valour anyway, but for MP where we want intuitive army purchasing at valour 0, we will have to work hard to achieve that.
If the new era draws more players that would be nice and if in the end more players want to play the Mongol era that's ok with me, too. But it's going to be a long way till then.
We've been saying that we want to make more eras and units available for SP and we will do that. I'm certain that we can agree on a roster for the Mongols very soon and there's enough space for those units, too. Once those units are finished and can be played with, we'll give them initial stats, perhaps based on the stats made by Orda for STW, set them against a roster of Japanese units with the same animations as beta_8 but with different stats and see how it goes. Once we can test them online I guess that positive and negative aspects become obvious pretty soon, seeing that we have a lot of game playing experience among all of us.

I think that when barocca says that he wants to get rid of all other eras he means the original vanilla eras. That's what he's been saying for a long time and he also always wanted to have several SP eras, Taira vs Minamoto, Mongol invasion and Sengoku iirc. So, no need to get nervous about the deleting of the Sengoku era. The unit stats of eras can be defined independently from the animations. After all this isn't Rome or M2.



R'as

[R'as al Ghul]

P.S.: I'll make a patch with Techo_Mage's changes and then we can test those changes online and see if we got rid of the desync issue once and for all. It will be ready before next weekend and I'll make time to join you online for test games.

[Togakure]

Well "spoken" R'as, as usual.

I think it's important in these discussions to differentiate between SP and MP development. Confusion between the two may be contributing to some of the concern.

For the record, my comments are directed strictly at the MP aspect of the mod. I haven't been able to play the campaign because of a fault in my video card.

I'm glad to hear that separate eras are being considered for the Sengoku and mongols. From a software development and testing perspective, this should make things a lot easier, and preserve all the hard work and excellent results showcased in the current beta5 MP mod. It would be great to see this ported to beta8 with its beautiful graphics.

As a cavalry lover, I am excited to see the mongols being considered as an additional feature. I'm glad to see such respected authorities on mongol history offering their knowledge and advice, in addition to the mod developers who have stuck with this for so long with such dedication and grace. Cheers to those who will invest the time and energy into making it all work--it won't be a quick and easy project.

If I can be of use play-testing, let me know. I'm not experienced with this, but I imagine you can teach me.

[barocca]

i will try to be online for this weekend, i have to open some ports on my router first... (eek/!)

[Jochi Khan]

Just state days and times and I will make myself available to help with the 'testing'.

[Puzz3D]

The Japanese army changes considerately in contrast to the Sengoku era because of missing guns and it will probably be necessary to adjust the stats of units to match the Mongols.

The Japanese units have been optimized relative to the fundamental unit, the Yari Samurai. I wouldn't recommend changing the stats of existing Japanese units.

[barocca]

I am very glad to see so many people passionate about the mod,

for the "classic" Mongol Invasion era there were a number of Japanese units missing, yet i always found the game quite playable,
(on the other hand I also found the mongols vs. guns 'n' monks mod quite playale too)
I feel what we need do is adjust the Mongol's stats to suit the changes in the Japanese force composition.
I have given them a much larger array of units to choose from,
please have a look in that thread and suggest what should and/or could be MP, and what should be SP only. AND STATS (att/def/morale/walk/run/charge etc


IF we feel that balancing is awkward then we can readily add units to the Japanese LineUp,

it is my hope that the Japanese will have an Ashigaru Archer unit, (a slight mod to a mtw bif completed already)
I may also be able to give yarisam a katana for a pure "Katana" sam unit, (add a katana to their bif),
Yarisam can already use a Naginata giving them an armour piercing option, (naginata is already in their bif)
ashigaru and yarisam can also be given pike's (and appropriate bonuses) very easily (adjust the weapon dimension in weapon.txt file)
ashigaru already have halberd and naginata in their new bif, giving us more options.

all these can be SP only, or can be added to MP to face off against the Mongols.
alternate era's could always be a possibility.
OR we could "SET" some clans as classic, and allow those clans "classic" units only.

we have many options, lets explore some.

[Tomisama]

I don't think anybody wants beta_8 to work more than I do because of the (subjective) graphical improvement and flair and the work we've put into it.

Some unit graphic improvements (cavalry I think), cherry trees and other Japaneese style terrain on a whole new set of province maps (not sure about size), if I recall

New maps alone could start a revival

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi Tomi,

yes, we've improved the Cav animations, the SamArchers have a correct reload sequence, we've introduced the model pack with castles, pagodas and cherry trees and we've imported the STW terrain. I've done 2-3 maps and Tosa has done some maps, too. All of them large. Yuuki has reskinned all province maps (small size, to help with the fatigue problem) to emulate the original STW provinces.
We would need to reskin some maps from Mppack1-3 as they're not adjusted to the new terrain tile set, yet.
So, there's lots of new stuff in beta_8.

R'as

Some unit graphic improvements (cavalry I think), cherry trees and other Japaneese style terrain on a whole new set of province maps (not sure about size), if I recall

New maps alone could start a revival

[TechnoMage of Shadows]

a good man once said "keep moving forward",
he made it his motto in life,
let not the "divine wind" of silence,
wear away the will.

[R'as al Ghul]

Hi guys,

here's the link for the Samurai Warlords patch 8.1. (222k)
I'll post this in several threads to reach everybody.
Features:

• includes the fix by Techno_Mage_of_Shadows.
• deletes all vanilla eras for easier access
• features a new Main Menu title, so that people can check if the patch is properly installed.
• the unit prod is still called "MP_11_unit_prod", the old will be overwritten by the patch, the stats haven't changed

R'as

[Orda Khan]

New maps alone could start a revival

Question: Map Editor.
Making new maps, using Beta 8 editor uses STW textures and models now? If that's so I don't mind making some

.....Orda

[R'as al Ghul]

Question: Map Editor.
Making new maps, using Beta 8 editor uses STW textures and models now? If that's so I don't mind making some

.....Orda

Hi Orda,

yes when using the beta_8 version to create new maps you just have to select Japanese Architecture and Japan as terrain and have access to the new map textures and the models.
I have already retextured several of your Mizuland maps, which are included in the beta_8 version.
Tosa has done 3-4 new large maps and I've done 2 large maps.
The Multiplayer maps are filed in the "Saved Maps" folder, while the campaign maps are all filed in "battles/maps".
The effect is that the MP maps are bold and listed first in the selection/hosting screen.

[Orda Khan]

Well that's great news, R'as. STW textures just created the mood before the battle even started. I ran a custom test on O_Mizuland 10 and 13 and they looked wonderful

......Orda

[R'as al Ghul]

Glad you like them.